Brethren Moderators, Worthy Opponent, and Kind Friends:

     I want to read to you from the first chapter of Ephesians and will begin to read from the fourth verse: "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will." "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children." The brother says that predestination is not causative. I wonder if the Lord causes that adoption.

     ELDER RHODES: (interrupting): Secondary, yes, sir.

     ELDER WEST: I thought He adopted them by the first works. Does He use a preacher in it? Does He adopt them secondly? Or is that the work of the Lord, or is it dependent upon a creature for some secondary work in that adoption? Why, that is the CampbelIite doctrine, that He adopts them secondarily; that the Lord has given a secondary cause by which they can obey His word, and you say He adopted them through a secondary cause. Do you see the dilemma he is in? If he says that the predestination of God is causative in adopting them, he knows that I will ask him why it is not causative, and then, there he contradicts it. He can see it. That is why he has tried to stay out of it and walked into the other hole on the other side of it. Predestination, my brother, is causative, and everything that God predestinates He causes it to come to pass. There is nothing that He ever predestinated that He didn't cause to come to pass. He predestinated the adoption of His children and caused that adoption to come to pass. You had better go to the Arminians and join them, because they believe He doesn't cause it at all.

     All right, we will go a little further. I was never in better humor in my life; never had so much fun since Christmas. His proposition says that God absolutely predestinated whatsoever comes to pass, and this Scripture says that He predestinated us unto the adoption of children. There is not one word said about whatsoever comes to pass. Yes, that is loaded. That is full of predestination. It is full of predestination, but the Bible kind, and not your kind. "To the praise of the glory of His grace wherein He hath made us accepted in the beloved." I wonder if that is making us accepted through secondary causes. God didn't make us accepted by first causes. He has made us accepted. "In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; wherein He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself: That in the dispensation of the fullness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will"-everything that is in Christ. He works according to the counsel of His own will all things in Christ, that in the dispensation of the fullness of times, He might gather together in one all things in Christ. It is not the wicked acts of any devil. Was the Lord doing the wicked acts of men and devils when He said, "He worketh all things according to His own will?" There is no secondary cause about it. He was doing the devil's work for him, according to his doctrine. It is a terrible mess for a man to get himself in and for folks to have to read, isn't it? But I am not responsible for the place he has put himself in.

     He said that God is not the author of sin. That is what he said. All right, I am not going to say that he said God is the author of sin, but I am going to ask you this question: How in the world could God work all things and not be the author of all things that He works. Can God work something that He is not the author of? If He works all things, and God is not the author of all sin and wickedness, and yet, He works it, how could He work it unless He was the author of it, being as He is the first cause of all causes? Can't you see that? Wait a minute; somebody said, "No, that is not the truth." Let me read you the answer, his answer to my question: "Do you do everything you do because you cannot help it?" He says "a man's ways are of the Lord." That was his answer to my question, "his ways are of the Lord." The record will show that is what you said. I am not misrepresenting you. You said his ways are of the Lord. If his ways are of the Lord, then, I judge he does what he does because he cannot help it, if his ways are the ways of the Lord. That means, I suppose, they come from the Lord, doesn't it, if they are of the Lord? And if they are of the Lord, then he is not the author of what comes of the Lord.

     Is sin and wickedness His ways? If sin and wickedness-if he has ways of sin and wickedness, and they are of the Lord, then, there are things of the Lord, according to Rhodes, that He is not the author of.

     I never hated anything on God's earth like I hate that God dishonoring doctrine-that fallacious charging that the ways of men are of the Lord. Man had to do what he did do. I got him out on that absolute limb. He squirmed and twisted and tried to tell about it, and his moderator got so hot he had to get up time after time, and he didn't want me to mention some things that the ladies would blush at, which were spoken of in the Bible. If the Bible teaches it, why should the ladies blush? You ought to be willing to declare the whole counsel of God, if that is the counsel of God, if it does make the ladies blush. Are you seeking to please men? If you are seeking to please men, you are not the servant of God. If it is the counsel of God in the Book that God did all of these things and, through a secondary cause, causes them to come to pass, he is talking about God's work and it should not make the ladies blush. That is the best way in the world he had of getting his hide taken off. He said that for sympathy through the ladies blushing, when it came out of his absolutism and say, "Yea, Lord, you are responsible for the whole thing. You cannot do any more or less than I fixed for you to do.

     In your answer to my questions, did you contend that God is the cause of all evil? "Yes, second causes."

     Q. "Did you say that no events come to pass without a cause?" "Why, certainly."

     ''Is God the cause of events?" "Yes." I wonder if you ever looked up the word "event" in a dictionary. An event is something that happens, and time after time they jumped up and said it was charging consequences when I said that God was the cause, and now, in a direct answer to the question, he said God is the cause of all events-God is the cause of events. "If God is not the cause of events, who is the cause?" That is your question. That is what he says. That is the way he answers it.

     "Did God determine all events?" "God said so." "Is determination causative?" "Not necessarily." God determined something but did not cause it; and yet, He causes events? That is a contradiction in this record.

     All right, in Isaiah x. 1: "He corrupted Israel through the wickedness of the king." Was that the Lord doing that? Does that prove that God predestinated all things that come to pass, both good and evil?

     He did find two texts with "predestination" in them. They did not say a thing in the world about sin and wickedness. If that is sin and wickedness, then the Lord worked sin and wickedness, but is not the author of what He works. He said He made the kind of world just like He wanted when He made the antediluvian world. Will you tell me what the words "antediluvian world" means, what kind of world it is, and define "antediluvian world." Yes, He made it exactly like He wanted it, just exactly like He wanted it.

     Hebrews ii. 10: "For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings." There is nothing in the world said in that text about predestinating all things which come to pass, both good and evil; not a thing in the world.

     Colossians i. 17: "And He is before all things, and by Him all things consist," and nothing was made that was made except that God made it. But, is he talking about sin? Let us see if it is, according to his own statement. He said that God is not the author of sin, but if all things is sin, then, it came by Him, because all things, he said, come by Him. Then, He must be the author of what comes by Him, isn't He? If sin comes by Him, isn't He the author of what comes by Him? Look at the fallacy of that position. He is certainly the author of what comes by Him. If that is sin and wickedness, it comes by Him. I thought it was by man that sin entered into the world, or do you have to run it off somewhere on a secondary cause?

     He quotes text after text and the answers are in the record, and yet, he reads them over and over. He said that the brother has evaded these questions for a day and a half. Why, the half is not yet up, is it? We started yesterday morning and I didn't get all of them until your last speech.

Why, the day is not up yet. He said I evaded them for a day and a half. Did the Lord predestinate that you should forget the time? He couldn't help saying what he did. God predestinated it.

     He says there is a time for everything under heaven. Everything that happens under heaven happens in time. But there is not one word in all of the Scripture that says that everything that happens in time was predestinated by the Lord.

     In his proposition, whatsoever comes to pass, was predestinated by the Lord. That is the Scripture that I want you to find.

     He says that whatsoever God doeth, it is done forever. Is that sin? Is that what Baptists believe? I believe, my brother, what God does is done forever, but is it sin? If it is sin, then the Lord did something that He was not the author of, because he said God is not the author of sin.

Will you tell us, Brother Rhodes, how God does something that He is not the author of? Will you just tell me how He does it?

     And he says there were hearts of some men set to do evil. Why, certainly, there were hearts of some men set to do evil, but find a Scripture that says that God predestinated from all eternity, from the beginning, their hearts were set to do evil. That is what you have to find. That is what your proposition says.

     He said, "As a lamb had been slain from the foundation of the world." That does not even favor Scripture.

     All right, I am going to begin on my negative argument. I say his proposition is not true-but let us notice the Rhodes version again: Covet thy neighbor's house and love his wife so that I will be glorified in my predestination, and ye cannot help it. If a man comes into your house and loves your wife, don't you get mad at him. Don't you get mad at all. Don't you folks get your shotguns. He couldn't help it. God has determined all events. If it happens, God is the determiner of it and through Him all things exist. He says that is sin and wickedness; so it is of Him and through Him that this man comes to your house and loves your wife.

     The proposition cannot be true, because God despised the feast days of old. Amos v. 21: "I hate, I despite your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies." If his proposition is true, God despised what He predestinated. If his proposition is true, the Lord despised what He determined to come to pass. If those feast days were events and He causes events-you said it, but if you knew the definition of the word "event" you would not have said it-events are those things that come to pass. That is a definition of it, and therefore, the Lord did not do that, but according to his doctrine, the Lord caused them. He caused these old feast days, and He was not well pleased with what He caused, according to Rhodes.

     His proposition cannot be true, because everything the Lord predestinated is His pleasure. He said, "I will do all my pleasure." Sin and wickedness is not His pleasure. He said, in Isaiah xlvi. 10: "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country; yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it."

     If you don't care, I will preach for a few minutes and quit fooling with this mess. That is what it is. It is a mess. Any man that contends for such dishonoring doctrine is a mess. I will tell you what God purposed and what God will bring to pass. He purposed the salvation of His people. He purposed the salvation of His people, and it would have taken the grace of God, my brother, in the salvation of individuals if sin had never entered into the world, for the simple reason that man was a natural individual. He was not a spiritual individual, but a natural individual and it would have taken the grace of God to prepare him and fit him for heaven to glorify Him if he had never sinned.

Therefore, your proposition falls. Does sin make grace abound? God forbid. Grace never did abound through sin. It doesn't come that way. That is God's eternal truth. That is the purpose of God-the predestination of God and I am going to tell you what God predestinated He causes to come to pass. He doesn't say that it does because it will get him in a dilemma, but what God predestinates, He causes to come to pass; and. He will cause the last one to be saved in glory whom He did foreknow. If you will not quote it, I will. "He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son." That is God's truth; the last one of them will be conformed to the image of Jesus. That is predestination, brother. That number is so ordered and so sure that it cannot be increased or diminished. Not secondary cause, but the first cause of God to save His people and house them in heaven and immortal glory. That is the doctrine of predestination as taught in the Bible. That is comforting to God's people, and it will bind God's people closer together.

     The reason there was a division in the association, sir, is because you bucks-pardon the expression if you will-advocated absolute predestination of all things that come to pass. There is no such thing in the Bible.

     He has labored here for a day and a half. Yes, a day and a half of his time is already gone, and I won't misrepresent it when I say that for almost a day and a half he has labored to prove to you that God absolutely predestinated all things. He has not proved that God predestinated all things, and the reason he hasn't is because he cannot, because there is nothing in God's Book that will favor it.

     If the Lord predestinated what David did-I am going to read something from Second Samuel xi. 26, 27. You can have this reference, if you will, sir. "And when the wife of Uriah heard that Uriah her husband was dead, she mourned for her husband. And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the Lord. Was He pleased about His predestiriation? If He predestined it, He certainly would have been pleased with it; but the thing that David did displeased the Lord; so the Lord did not predestinate it, because it didn't please the Lord.

     He said, "I will do my pleasure." Pleasure means things that please. Don't you know the definition of the word? The word "pleasure" means things that please the Lord. When it pleases the Lord, it is His pleasure. He said, "I will do all my pleasure." David was not pleasing to the Lord, and the Lord said, "Therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah to be thy wife." It didn't please the Lord.

     His proposition cannot be true, because Paul said he had not kept anything back that was profitable. Paul did not preach absolute predestination of all things. If it had been profitable, Paul would have preached it. He said, "I have not kept anything back that is profitable." Is absolute predestination profitable? If it is, well, Paul did not preach it. He didn't say a thing in the world about God absolutely predestinating all things. So, Paul did not tell the truth about it when you nodded your head? Poor old Paul, inspired by inspiration, didn't tell the truth by inspiration. "I have not kept back anything that was profitable." Paul did not preach absolute predestination of all things. Therefore, it was not profitable. He didn't keep back a thing in the world that was profitable. "But I have showed you and taught you publicly from house to house." Paul spent all that time over there with those brethren, writing by the inspiration of God and preaching by the inspiration of God, and not a record of anything was made about absolutely predestinating all things from the beginning, whatsoever comes to pass. Brother Rhodes, why didn't Paul believe in predestination of all things whatsoever comes to pass? If he didn't keep anything back that was profitable, why didn't he tell them that? Why, it is even so profitable today that you fellows divide your churches over it. It looks like if it were profitable enough for you fellows to divide churches over it, it would have been profitable enough for Paul to have said something about it.

     His proposition is not true, because Paul said, "I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God." The absolute predestination of all things, both good and bad, is not in all of the counsel of God, because he did not declare it; therefore, it is not of God but of man. God did not declare it. He said, "I declare unto you all the counsel," so, absolute predestination of all things was not declared by the Lord, by Paul, and therefore, it was not in the counsel of God. Fellows like Rhodes and Beebe and Sikes declare it.

     His proposition cannot be true, because Paul said he was set for the defense of the gospel. Absolute predestination of all things, if it had been true, it looks like it would have been in the gospel. If it had been true, it looks like Paul would have defended it. Therefore, it is not the gospel, so, if it is not the gospel of the Lord, therefore, the Lord did not fix it. .

     I am a very poor man and I have to scratch to get it, but I will give you $25 in your next speech if you will find the language that God predestinated whatsoever comes to pass. I will give you $25 to find it.

     MODERATOR CAYCE: Find it where?

     ELDER WEST: In the Bible.

     Time expired.