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Home arrow Griffin's History arrow Daily/Throgmorton Debate-Third Speech-Second Proposition
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The first thing I want to do in this speech is to give a little dissertation on the phrase “dead in sins,” on what it means to be dead in sins. I think this is a good stage of the discussion for this thought to be brought up. According to Brother Daily, a dead sinner is dead just like a dead horse; that is, the sinner dead in sins is like a dead horse, like a block of wood, like a piece of stone: just as insensible, just as inanimate to righteousness. Let us consider. Dead in sins does not mean that the man thus dead has no life in any sense. It means this: It means that he is condemned; that he has no Divine life; that he is separated from Christ and from real righteousness. That is what it means. He is dead to righteousness exactly as a Christ is dead to sin. Here is the Christian dead to sin; here is the sinner dead to righteousness; both dead just alike, only in opposite directions. Isn’t that right?

A saint can be tempted , to sin though he is dead to Sin. Can’t he? So a sinner can be so drawn by the Spirit as to desire a life of righteousness while dead to righteousness if that is not true how can you make the other side true? The Colossians, dead to sin, were told to mortify their members upon the earth (See Col. 3 5) Saints are to resist temptation. So a man can be commanded to repent when dead to righteous ness. He may be drawn from sin, just as a Christian may be drawn from sin, and we have all been that. Christians may actually commit sin. Haven’t you? I have. Christians may thus do and still he dead to sin. Isn’t that right? I want you to pay attention to that. Isn’t that right?

So a man dead in sin, dead to righteousness, may he so drawn by the Holy Spirit and taught by the truth that he may desire life and seek life while still dead to righteousness, if that is not true how is the other point true? You never can answer that while the sun shines, nor after it is dark. Try your hand at it, and your brain, and your good spirit.
Now let us see what the Bible says: John 5:40, “And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” You can see how that is: Drawn by the Spirit, taught by the truth, a man dead to this Divine life may be led to desire it, and may come where it is and get it! But these people that Jesus talked to, would not do that! He said to them, “Ye will not come.”
Brother Daily told us awhile ago that eternal life is in Christ. Yes and here were persons that would not come and get it. Of course they were dead. John 6:53, “Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.” How do we partake? By accepting his flesh and blood by faith. And how s faith produced? According to Brother Daily “by the ministry of the word.” Unless a man partakes of the virtue of Christ’s flesh by faith then there is no life in him. You can put John R. Daily down as agreed to that in open court. Where is he now?

John 6:57, “As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.” Before he eats, he is dead, when he eats, he is alive. I John 5:12, quoted by my brother, I believe, “he that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.” There is the line between the living and the dead; on the one side a man is dead to sin on the other side a man is dead to righteousness, and in the one case he is just as dead as in the other except as to directions.

No something else. Isa. 55:1-3, “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters!” (Here is a dead sinner desiring something better. He is still dead). “Ho, every one that thirsteth, come, ye, to the waters, and he that hath no money; come, ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently, unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let’ your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me; hear and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”

“Hear and your soul shall live” There is hearing in order to living, hearing before life. It doesn’t mean life from a death like the death of a dead horse; not that, of course; but that the one to seek life has a life as to spiritual things, just like the life of the Christian as to carnal things. Try that Brother Daily. I will give you all the rest of the time on that. I think you will need it; and then you cannot touch it.

I have some more here from Isa. 55:6-7. Speaking to these same parties who are dead, yet desiring life, a thirst for life, the prophet says, “seek ye the Lord while he may he found, call upon  him while he is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and let the unrighteous man his thoughts and let him return unto the Lord and he will have mercy upon him: and to our God for he will abundantly pardon.”  Now this is the way the Bible teaches about death in trespasses and sins. It is no such a conglomerate mess that it cannot be understood. It does not mean that you folks that are not born again are just like a block of wood, that you don’t even know what we are talking about, that you are just as inanimate (according to his doctrine you are just as inanimate to the Bible and this discussion) as the body of a dead horse is to the life of the live horse. You know that is not so. Your own consciousness tells you so. I am talking to the people out there, Brother Daily. Not to you
Brother Daily complains that I am not making any progress. I have gone as far as I want to go at present. I am going further when I get to the place; I know where the place is. Don’t you bother about that. I have a fence built. I have a rampart in place. There has not a rail been taken off.

He says that in Eph. p1:1-13, they trusted after they heard, and that they were regenerated before they heard. He quotes from the book of Suppositions. The idea of a man that doesn’t trust in Jesus Christ being regenerated, when Jesus Christ says such a man is condemned and under the wrath of God. Children of God are not under the wrath of God, they are justified.
Well he says that to quicken—I am referring now to some things he said this morning. He says to quicken means to enliven, as well as to give life. I that is sometimes so. Your dead horse illustration is correct as to that. You can quicken a live horse with a spur. And there is where your fallacy is. The sinner according to your position is as dead as a dead horse; he is like a stone and a block of wood. What would you think of Brother Daily preaching to a lot of tomb stones? If that gets a congregation where there is no elect that would be his crowd. They couldn’t understand a thing and the Holy Spirit could not reach them; they are dead, not simply dead as in sins, but dead as a dead horse that is rotting in the field and the buzzards feeding upon him. Such a doctrine utterly repudiates human responsibility. He said no preacher could give life to a dead sinner. Who said he could? I said God gives life. God employs the preaching of the gospel as a means in giving life. That is what I am arguing. He is setting up a straw man and amusing himself by throwing at him. I am here; throw at me.

In I Cor. 3:5-7 my opponent wants to know whom every man means. Every one to whom there is reference. He didn’t touch the argument. God made them believers through Paul’s preaching. That is my point. Paul planted; God gave the increase through Paul’s planting. He preached, God gave the increase. That is the point. God used the preaching. You see that is my proposition. You can see that. Remember Brother Daily agrees that faith is produced that way. Don’t forget, either, that faith is produced by the ministry of the word, and that God does it.

The “Old School” brethren argue that faith is the direct gift of God. Yet Brother Daily has been arguing that if the Spirit acts directly he cannot use the word, and yet he has the Spirit giving the faith a God’s direct gift. And this is going into the book. How will that look in the book?

Yes sir; it will he read that John R. Daily who teaches that faith is God’s direct gift says, and shakes hands with me on it, that faith comes by the preaching of the gospel and yet in the same day he said that because the Spirit operates directly or immediately if regeneration, he cannot use the word in regeneration! Mighty bad for you, Brother Daily, but you did it yourself.

He comes to II Cor. 3:3 where the Corinthians were the paper, Paul the pen, the Holy Spirit the ink and Jesus Christ the writer; and he said. “That is can’t help-it-ism.” Suppose it was. It proves my proposition, whether it is “can’t help-it-ism” or not Here we have Christ using the preacher and using the Holy Spirit to imprint himself in the hearts of these Corinthians. Brother Daily says the ink doesn’t change the paper. I think it makes a great difference in it. Here is a check signed by John D. Rockefeller. Just over here is a blank piece of paper. Which would you pick up? Yet he says the ink makes no difference! Could you have any crop on any soil—would there be any results? Would it be a fruitful field without seed? Never. But my friend is going to elaborate the parable of the sower. By the way I. have some more questions, and I want to get back to the query box. I am going to open it again. Let us look at some of my brother’s questions.

“Does God want everybody to be saved?” What has that got to do with our proposition? I am answering in the sense of desire. He does. “God will have,” in the sense of desire, “all men to be saved.” God has not determined it. God desires you to live a holy life every day, but you don’t do it. No, sir, God’s desire is not accomplished even in your case. Of course, God could take you and work you like a machine, but he doesn’t do it.

“Does the devil want everybody to be lost?” I think

“If God has more power than the devil and wants and desires to save everybody, will he not save them?” he does. Not necessarily. The devil wants you to do wrong every day. God desires that you do right every day. But you do wrong every day. Does that prove that God has less power than the devil has? You answer that. If this means anything, I want you to have the full benefit of it. I have certainly answered you.

“Are not those born of God who love him?” I John 4:7. Yes, sir.

“If those who love God are born of God, does the alien sinner love God?” In a general sense, no; the alien sinner does not love God.

“If the alien sinner does not love God must he accept Christ in order to be born of God?” Yes, sir. In accepting Christ he is born of God, receives God’s love.

“If the alien sinner does accept Christ when he does not love him docs he not accept what he does not want?” That might be or not be. I have taken things many things I didn’t exactly want, that is in the sense of desire. That question is a little ambiguous.

“Does the alien sinner have to become willing in order to be regenerated?” Don’t you think so? I thought you all believed that. So often have I heard your preachers quote, “My people shall be a willing people in the day of power.” (In giving this quotation, Mr. Throgmorton intones the words.) I have heard that away back when I was a little boy. Yes, the sinner has to become willing.

“Is the alien sinner regenerated according to his own will or according to God’s will?” According to God’s will. As to how God brings men to be willing, that is another question. Of course, he uses the word. My friend has already agreed that God uses the word in producing faith.

“If the alien sinner is regenerated according to his own will is it not the will of the flesh or of the will of men?” He is not regenerated according to his own will. Nothing of the sort.  God brings him to be willing, but the process is of God.
“If you say it is of the will of the flesh or of the will of man, reconcile this idea with John 1:12-13.” I don’t have to, because that is not what I say.

“Do the heathen without the gospel have an equal chance with those who have the gospel?” They have not. That is, those that have not heard the gospel I mean. There are men in this country who do not have equal opportunities with others. God lets one boy grow up in a community where there is but little culture; lets another boy be born where everything tends to refinement and culture. Do they have similar opportunities? No. But they each have enough, in his Place, to make him responsible. I have more of that.

Well, I have already answered this argument about the impact. You had better give up that stuff and take a doctrine that is consistent?

He says he is after me and that I have left the proposition. No. I defined the proposition and in laying down the definitions I indicated that he in denying it, was out of line with the old Confession. I was approaching the issue in this. He backed off instead of approaching it. He says he followed me into Gill and into the London Confession and he tells you I wouldn’t say whether I believed a certain thing or not. I didn’t have to. I made before the debate, a close study of’ the Old Confession. I haven’t taken the opportunity to look closely at the point he asked me since he asked me about it. I am sure of one thing: It does not affect the issue. The Confession is a fine old document, but I am like my friend. He is not tied to it he says. The Old London Confession was signed by the fathers. He says that to say whether preaching is necessary does not concern us. To say whether preaching is necessary does concern us, I say preaching is necessary, but it is not necessary to enable God to do this or that. God has all power. My opponent says this: “If Brother Throgmorton will say that God can save heathen and others without the word I will leave off.” I have said that a dozen times already that God can do it. Of course God can do it. He has the power to do it. But that is not the question. It is the method that is in question. God has the power to save through the preaching of the gospel and that is his method. He may save some the other way; I don’t say he doesn’t. Brother Daily mentioned some he thought were. I think he made a little mistake on some of them.

He tells you I say God cannot give the increase where the seed is not planted. God can plant the seed himself if he needs it. He says that now.

He says Selvidge made sport of the work of the Spirit. I have heard a good many things imputed to the Spirit that I don’t think the Spirit had anything to do with. You know there are extremes in all denominations as to the work of the Spirit, and people do and say unreasonable things under impulse and say they are led by the Spirit.

My friend says Cornelius was regenerated without the Gospel. I want to read from Acts, tenth chapter. Here is what Peter said. We will see whether Cornelius was regenerated without the Gospel. The thirty-sixth verse: “The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all). That word I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which Jesus preached.” So if they were regenerated at the time Brother Daily says, it was not without the Gospel because they knew about it.

He says Saul was another case of regeneration with out the preaching of the gospel. Saul had the word direct through the mouth of Christ himself, and threw up the white flag of surrender at once, saying, “What wilt thou have me to do?” Christ used the word even from the sky. Brother Daily says the deaf and dumb are regenerated without the preaching of the gospel. I am not talking about the deaf and dumb, and we are not speaking of the after world. And the heathen. I don t know what he would say about them, whether God regenerates them after death or when.

But he says he is in the lead! Yes, I have seen a calf in the lead, loose, and somebody after it, before today.
He says Kirkland and others went off into heresy and a year ago he said he was glad they went. He didn’t say that this time. He is glad they went after they got to be heretics.

He says he has baptized more missionaries than I have of his people. I can’t just now count up. I have baptized several of them, and I tell you this, judging by the way the two denominations grow, I wouldn’t infer that he got very many of us. Old School Baptists don’t have many converts. Their children go to our Baptist churches and to Methodist churches and under the preaching of the gospel, are converted. Then they go back and join; go back and tell what the Lord has done for them. I have known scores of cases of that kind.

Converts among them in their meetings are few. I believe so far that more than fifty per cent whom I have known to join them went from meetings of other denominations where they were converted. Of course they told their story and were taken in and baptized; they were pronounced elect and all right, and it was believed that preaching had no more to do with saving them than had the saloon. I have heard just that kind of talk.

If they are dead, as dead blocks of wood, why may not regeneration as well occur in a saloon as a church? The sinner according to my friend’s view has no responsibility at all and spiritually is as well off in a saloon as under the preaching of the word. My opponent says he baptizes any that comes to him with the proper experience. Yes; they get that experience at this meeting or that and they come and tell you and you baptize them. You might have been converted at one of these kinds of meetings yourself.

He tells you that the word of God is the incorruptible seed. So do I. “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible by the word of God which liveth and abideth forever.” “And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.” “Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings, as new born babes desire the sincere milk of the word that ye may grow thereby.” 2 Peter 1:23-25 and 2:1-2). The same word all the way through.

(Time expired).

More to come later...this is a work in progress.
Last Updated ( Wednesday, 18 October 2006 )
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