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Daily/Throgmorton Debate-Fifth Speech PDF Print E-mail
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Gentleman Moderators, worthy Opponent, respected Audience:

He said if I had so much matter, why not use it instead of giving the exhortation? He will see that I have plenty of argument.

He contends that the payment was not made until the day the sinner, goes free by believing. Then the illustration he used yesterday would indicate that the prisoner in jail under fine of $1,000.00 did not have his fine paid until he got out of the jail by believing. That only needs to be mentioned that any intelligent mind may reject it. Saving faith, he says, is not so much believing a fact as trusting the Saviour.

(Points to chart, page 58.) -

The Saviour must be trusted. Sinners—all Adam’s race—must trust the Saviour. They cannot trust the Saviour until the Spirit through the preachers gets to them, and the Spirit cannot get to them any other way, according to his theory, and I dare him to deny that. But the preachers do not get to those who die without ever hearing the gospel preached. Then they never have an opportunity of exercising saving faith, and yet they sink down to an endless hell because God has suspended their eternal salvation upon a condition they cannot perform—it be trusting

He says belief is not covering the debt. He says, “If I owe $100.00, and you pay it and give me a receipt, then I am free.” Not unless you believe, according to your theory. Then when I give you the receipt and you believe it, the debt is paid, and not until then! I wonder how he got the receipt if I didn’t pay the debt first!

Alien sinners, he says, cannot of themselves believe. He says God does the drawing, the sinner does the corning, and if God doesn’t draw he doesn’t come. If God draws the sinner, the sinner comes. If God tries to draw him, he may come. If God draws him, he comes, and he will not come until he does draw him, for no one can come unless the Father draws him. He says, suppose it is so that millions have no chance. He has to suppose it is so, according to his theory. He is compelled to suppose it is so.

He says the ends of the earth are not the whole thing. Then I suppose that if the gospel that carries the Spirit to dead sinners to save them, without which they could not be saved, in reaching the ends of the earth, doesn’t reach the whole thing. So all between the ends have not been reached by the Holy Spirit, and they are gone without chance of salvation.

Our sins, in 1st John 2:2 are the sins of the elect. They are the sins of the elect among the Jews. And the “world” has reference to the Gentiles in distinction form the Jews, God’s elect among the. Gentiles, so that it is every nation, kindred, tongue and people, these nations, represented by this part of my chart, as well as the people represented by this part. (See page 58.)

I want to turn to Rom. 5:17-19, and read: “For if by one man’s offense death reigned by one (that is, Adam), much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” There is restriction; those that shall reign in life by one (Jesus Christ) are not the same number as those upon whom death comes by the offense of one. They are restricted to those who receive abundance of grace and righteousness. “Therefore by the offense of one (that is, Adam), judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.” That is, the free gift of righteousness and abundance of grace through Jesus Christ came upon all men, just as the 17th verse says, represented by Christ unto justification of life.

Resurrection did not make Christ’s death effectual. He says it did. Resurrection, he said, did make his death effectual. He quoted this in supposed, proof: “He was delivered for our offenses, he was raised again for our justification.” Now, though he was delivered for our offenses, we never could have been justified unless he had been raised, because he would have been a dead Savior, and that would have proved his death could not effect reconciliation for our offenses. His resurrection was a demonstration of the virtue of his death. There was virtue in the death itself, as I told you, aside from the resurrection. When Christ lay in the tomb, his death was virtuous. When he was raised from the dead, it was proof that his death was virtuous.

How does God give light to all men? He said he didn’t have to take time to tell how. God gives light to all men. He doesn’t dare to say that God gave light to the millions that go down without ever hearing the gospel preached.

He spoke of my being a member of Christ’s church or bride. He spoke of Christ’s church being in the future, when Christ died on the cross, and said Christ died on the cross for the church, and spoke of others that Christ died for, too, that didn’t belong to that church. It is in that sense I spoke of belonging to the bride of Christ. “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church.” It was his church before he gave himself for it in that sense; there is a sense in which I was brought in. That is a result of what Christ did on the cross, and not the cause.

He made sport of the idea of election, being elected in sin, and said we were chosen in Christ. But the Apostle says that we were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. I ask you, were we in Christ before the foundation of the world? The choice was before the foundation of the world. The choice is before they came to Christ, for David says, “Blessed is the man whom thou choosest and causest to approach unto thee.” They were chosen ones be fore they approached him. The God-head did not do the same or all. I did a good deal for children. I ask him if he didn’t do the same for all in their lost state, according to his theory? If he didn’t do the same for those finally lost in order to their salvation, that he did for those saved? Did he not? Answer the question according to your theory.

Then he arrays me against the Bible about Christ tasting death for every man. Yesterday he said I said that the conjunction “but,” being disjunctive, means to look forward. That was not the point I made. The point I made was, that the disjunctive “but” indicates a change in the subject-matter; that the Apostle, after using that conjunction, referred to some other matter; that if he had intended to make an addition, he would have used the co-ordinate conjunction “and”; that “every man” doesn’t have reference to the men mentioned in the fore-part of the lesson, but to those that follow, Christ being described as being the perfect captain of their salvation, and they being brought to glory by him.

He arrayed the scripture which says, “He is the preserver of all men” and “Propitiation for sins of the whole world.” I have answered that.

In the negative argument he calls attention to John 3:16, “God so loved the world.” The Jewish idea was that the Messiah was to come exclusively to the Jews, that he was to come to save them; but Christ tells them that he came in love to the Gentiles as well as the Jews. Love, in its very nature, is particular, definite and special. It must center upon some particular and special object of its exercise and cannot, go to everybody in general. When God says, “I have loved thee with an everlasting, love,” he addresses not persons in general, but persons in particular. That the nations of the world meant the Gentiles is seen by a comparison of Luke 12:30 with Malt 6:32, “For all these things do the nations of the world seek after; and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.” “For after all these things do the Gentiles seek; for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.” The Gentiles are here called the nations of the world, in conformity with the Jewish manner of speaking. Again, the Gentiles are denominated “the world” by Paul in Rom. 11:15, “For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of him be, but life from the dead ?” So Paul calls the Gentiles “the world.”

That Christ did not mean the entire human family when he said, “God so loved the world,” is proved conclusively beyond successful dispute by Paul’s quotation, when he says, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated” (Rom 9:11-13). God could not love all alike and hate any. If he loved some and hated some at the same time, he did not love all alike; in fact, he did not love all at all.

The learned Moses Stuart, though he believed in a general atonement as a theologian, was too candid as .a scholar to build an argument or found his faith on such passages as John 3:16. He says, “The sacred writers mean to declare by such expressions that Christ died really and truly as well and as much for the Gentiles as for the Jews.”

Subjunctive mode means doubt, he says. Not always. Brother Throgmorton, you assume the role of teacher. I am going to accord you that place. However, I want to correct you. Subjunctive mode doesn’t always mean doubt. It only just occasionally means doubt in English, and as used in the Greek, you know, after the conjunction hena it means a certain purpose, being properly translated, “in order that.” So he gave himself in order that he might bring us to God, the purpose being to bring us, not to try to bring us, or give us a chance to come, or enable somebody else to bring us, or place us where we have no chance to come, but to bring us.

He says something has to be done. God cannot lie, so he cannot save sinners unless they believe. That is about what that amounts to. They have to do some thing, or God cannot do it. But he says the sinner doesn’t do that of himself. How does he do it, then? How does he do it? Eph., 1:19-20, “And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe according to the working of his mighty power which he wrought it Christ, when he raised him from the dead and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places.” How did we believe? We came to believe according to the working of his mighty power. Does not that teach that God can make the unbeliever believe, just the same as he brought forth Christ from the dead? I will ask that question. Come to it like a man. More anon.

He says God cannot save a sinner until that sinner himself believes in God, any more than God can lie. God is just as helpless. A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit—as much tied up as he is tied up with inability to lie.

I come now to the next argument in support of my proposition. It is that God laid on Christ the sins of those for whom he died; that Christ actually bore those sins on the cross; that he put those sins away and made an end of them and sealed them up.

Isaiah 53:6, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.” All we, like sheep will do, have gone astray. The Lord laid upon him the iniquity of all his sheep. In the end of time the human family will go before God, the sheep upon the right, the goats upon the left, and the sheep will be those whose iniquities he has laid upon Christ. To those on the left he will say, “Depart from me, for I never knew you.” If God loved them just a much as these, he would have known them just the same. If he had died for them, he would have known them just as he knows these. But he says, “I never knew you.”

1st Peter 2:24, “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed.” The fact that he actually bore the sins of all for whom he died in his body on the tree is emphasized by the appositive phrase “his own self,” and by the additional use of the word “own” to the pronoun “his” in its limitation or modification of the word “body.” “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree.” These adjectives are used to make the declaration emphatic. This cannot be successfully denied. Then it is proved that God laid on his Son the sins of those for whom he died, and that the Son, his own self, bore these very sins in his own body on the cross. I inquire as to the result. What became of those sins which the Father laid on his Son which he bore in his body on the tree? Let the word of God answer, and let us all bow to the answer and forever keep silent rather than deny the answer so plainly given.

Heb. 9:26, “For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world; but now once in the end of the world bath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.” The end of the world here spoken of is the end of the Jewish economy. This is the fulfillment of what God promised by Daniel 9:23. Seventy weeks are promised to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation and to seal up the vision and prophecy. I will now give the English translation of the Greek Septuagint: “Seventy weeks have been determined upon by thy people and upon thy holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up the transgression and to blot out iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and the prophecy and to anoint the most holy.” A, week in prophecy is 7 years; 70 times 7 is 490. This seventy weeks, then, is 490 years. To make an end of sins, or for sins to be ended, is from the Greek phrase Tou suntelesthenai hamartian. The Greek infinitive in this phrase suntelesthenai is derived from the verb suntelco, the meaning of which is to bring to an end altogether to finish wholly, to consummate. To finish the transgression or to seal up the transgression, is from Ton sphragisthai hamartias. The infinitive sphragisai is from sphragizo, to close, to seal up, to make fast, as the seal with a seal or signet as of letters and books, so that they may not be opened and read. An instance of this is found in Isa. 29:11, where a book that is sealed is mentioned, and one that is learned says, “I cannot read it. because it is sealed.” So the sins of those for whom Christ died are so completely put away that no one can ever read them against them to condemn them.

The phrase “to make reconciliation (or atonement) for iniquities,” is from Ton exilasasthai adikias; the infinitive exillasasthai, is from hilaskomai, to appease, expiate, or to make atonement for. The Septuagint gives a phrase in the passage we are now considering that is not in the King James translation: apaleipsai tas adikias, to blot out, wipe off, or obliterate, to finish or seal, to make an end of sins, to make atonement or propitiation for them, and means to satisfy for the sins of those for whom he died, and to put them away so as to be seen or read no more against them, for which reason no one can lay anything to the charge of God’s elect because Christ died for them. (Rom. 8:33-3.4.) This is the propitiatory or expiatory sacrifice by which the punishment due to sin was removed from those for whom Christ died. In this way he bore their sins in his own body and put them away. Though those for whom Christ died remain in ignorance of the fact till it is revealed to them and they are brought to experience the joy that it brings, yet it became a fact, as shown by Daniel, at the time Jesus died on the cross.

As God laid on Christ the sins of all for whom he died, and as he bore them on the cross, and made an end of them, and sealed them up and blotted them out, so that no charge can be laid against those for whom he died, it follows as an unavoidable conclusion that all for whom Christ died will be eternally saved.

My next argument is that the justification of sinners is necessarily connected with the death of Christ for them as the procuring cause of their justification. As the cause of the justification is the bearing of the sins of those for whom Christ died, all for whom Christ died will be justified.

“By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, for he shall hear their iniquities” (Isa. 3:l1).

If the mere results had been borne and not the iniquities themselves, then justification would have been impossible. Pardon there might have been, but justification there never could have been. The word of God, by one sweeping declaration, settles this matter forever. Listen: “By his knowledge” (mark you, it is Jehovah speaking of his Son), “By his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many, for he shall bear their iniquities.” If we ask why any sinner is justified what is the cause of his justification, we find the answer in our text: Because Christ bore his iniquities. It is impossible that one sinner only should be justified, because he bore the iniquities of many. It is equally impossible that all the race of Adam should be justified unless he bore the sins of all the race. As the As the iniquities of sinners being borne by Christ in his death the cross is the cause of their being justified, as the text declares, then if he bore the sins of all the race then they will all be justified. Christ bearing the iniquities of sinners cannot result in the justification of only a part of them for whom he died, for the text declares he shall justify those whose iniquities he bore, because he bore them. Besides, if Christ’s bearing the iniquities of those for whom he died might result in the justification of only a part of them, then it might result in the justification of only one, or even none of them, for whatever is uncertain in part is uncertain in all.

This is far from the truth for God declares that he will divide Christ a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong. Why is this glorious exaltation? Because he bore the sins of many, justifies that many and makes intercession for that many. These are the many sons he will bring to glory, saying: “Behold I and the children which God has given me.” All shall be justified whose iniquities Christ bore on the cross. Therefore all for whom Christ died will be eternally saved.

(Time expired.)

Gentlemen, Moderators, Ladies and Gentlemen:

This half hour will go mighty quick; so it won’t take us long. I think I will begin answering Brother Daily’s speech with his and affirmative argument, then notice some other points later. This, after I ask him and hand him a few questions which I have here. By the way, I wish you had been kind enough, I Brother Daily, to have written out the questions you wished to ask me. Here are some questions I want him to answer:

What is the penalty due sin?

Where do you learn that only elect persons die in infancy?

Why does God favor a non-elect person with long life and deny the same blessing to the elect?

When Paul says, “Christ loved me and gave himself for me,” does he mean that Christ loved no one else and gave himself for nobody else?

Would Christ have suffered any more in dying for all of Adams race than in dying for just one sinner?

Does God command every sinner—elect and n elect—-to repent?

Does God censure sinners—elect and non-elect-—for not believing on his Son?

Does God require all men—elect and non-elect—to seek him?

Is there any way for a sinner to repent or seek God except through the crucified Christ?

Can a man believe on Christ without believing that Christ died for him?

Can a man be blamed for not accepting a gift which is not offered to him?

Can you name a passage in the New Testament wherein the word “world” means only the elect? I want that particularly, if you neglect the others.

Is Christ offered to men—-elect and non-elect—in the gospel?

My brother has reached what his brethren generally consider their chief proof text in the discussion of this question. I had begun to think he wasn’t going to bring it up. I had said to myself. I believe I will bring it up anyhow. Isa. 53:4-12. Now what I want to see today is as to what Christ is said here to have done, because we both agree that Christ is the Saviour. Let me read from the passage: “Surely he bath borne our griefs and carried our Sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God and afflicted; but he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth.” And so on. “He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of my people was he stricken.” Further on, in the 9th and 10th verses, I want to read: “Because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the Lore to bruise him; he hath put him to grief; when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied; by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong ; because he hath poured out his soul unto death; and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sins of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”

Nearly the whole text. It is a beautiful chapter, and it is full of the gospel; but does it teach the proposition on the chart there? That is the question to be settled. My friend read this passage and said, “Therefore all for whom Christ died will be eternally saved.” I want us candidly to look into it. Really it seems to teach that Christ suffered not only for his people, but for all. He suffered for those who “like sheep had gone astray.” That means all men. He was numbered with the transgressors. Even with the worst of malefactors he died. There he made intercession for the transgressors. So says the prophet. Of one thing, then, we are sure: While the sins of men were on Christ, and while he was smitten for the transgressors, and while he poured out his soul unto death, these things of themselves and by themselves at the time they occurred, set nobody free. Whatever they do for men is done when the virtue of them is q to men. Thus the London Confession: “They (the elect) are not justified personally until the Holy Spirit doth in due time actually apply Christ unto them.” See Chapter 11, 57th page of the Kirkland edition.

Though Jesus bore men’s sins, every man is still in his sins and lost just as if Jesus had never borne them and suffered for them, until the virtue of that sin-bearing and suffering is applied to him. For example. John R. Daily is one of those for whom all this was done that I read about. Christ suffered for John R. Daily, bore his griefs, carried his sorrows, died for him on the cross 1800 years or more ago! When was this done? At the time stated before John R. Daily was born. Did the fact that his sins were laid on Christ prevent John R. Daily from becoming an actual transgressor? No, sir. he grew up, he sinned and he became dead in trespasses and sins. That is a fact. While Christ 1,800 years ago had done all this, John R. Daily’s debt was not paid; his sins were not forgiven; he was unreconciled to God. God’s wrath was on him and the penalty was falling on his head; he was a child of wrath. Death in sin is the penalty of sin. If Christ had already actually paid Brother Daily’s penalty, again I ask could even a small part of the debt in justice be collected again from Daily? Manifestly, when a debt has been paid in full, it is as unjust to collect one cent of it, as it would be to collect all. If Christ literally paid all his debt on the cross, it was a great injustice to lay on Brother Daily sin’s penalty which he did not owe. He has told us time and time again that it had been paid 1,800 years.

The fact is, Christ made such a provision for Brother Daily that, when Brother Daily became reconciled to God, then his debt was paid, and never before. He then and there went scot free. That is where the prisoner went out! Never before! If Brother John R. Daily, after Jesus had borne his griefs, carried his sorrows and died for him, was still under the penalty and actually suffering, why may not any other man be likewise? and if God may be just and lay the penalty of sins for a number of years on him, may he not he just and lay the penalty for any number of years on another for whom Christ died? In other words, may not any sinner for whom Christ died suffer forever, unless actual payment be made for him as in the case of Brother John R. Daily? This actual payment is made for the actual sinner when he believes. Romans 3:25-26, “Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness; that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Let me repeat it again: “Whom (that is, Christ) God hath set forth to be a propitiation (a proper rendering is mercy seat) through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; to declare, I say, at this time his righteousness that he might be just and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.” And that is in a man’s lifetime. The provision was made back there on the cross, Brother Daily. Brother Daily’s mistake is, he makes the providing of the ransom price with which to pay the debt the payment, and it is not the payment; it is the provision for the payment. I wish you could get out of that mistake and come and stand with me on the great truth that Jesus tasted death for every one, every luau, every son of man. Tue payment is made when the sinner believes; never before; until he believes, although Christ died for him, he is a sinner. See John 3:18, “he that believeth not is condemned already.”

Suppose I have a friend who lives in a country where men are imprisoned fur debt. He owes $1,000.00 and is in jail for it. I love him and. want to get him out of prison. I go to work to get the $1,000.00. I sacrifice a lot of my own property. I suffer for my friend to get the money with which to pay his debt; but after 1 have suffered and saved all and have the money in hand, he remains under sentence until I take the price and go to the proper court and there satisfy the books. Then, when the necessary conditions provided for in the law are met, my friend goes free. So in this. The provision for sinners is stored up. Jesus Christ stored it up for us, and when the sinner believes, then it is his—its virtue is applied to him and his debt is paid. It doesn’t make so much difference how he is brought to believe. Brother Daily keeps wanting to argue the next question. He will get enough of that tomorrow and next day.

So Christ wrought, suffered and died for us on the cross. Then he took his blood and went into the court of heaven, as I showed you on the chart. Brother Daily had his eyes and mouth both open when I showed the chart; but did he notice it when he made his speech? No, he forgot it! Or maybe he didn’t think it was worth noticing.

He has given us 1st Peter 2:24. That is another favorite with Brother Daily’s people. I have read your book, Brother Cayce. This is another passage they usually quote: “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins should live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye are healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.” Let us look at this passage and see if it teaches what Brother Daily thinks it does. My duty is to examine the proof texts which he presents and see if the terms to be proven can be found in them, and if I show they are not there, then his proposition falls.

Yes, sir, Jesus bore our sins in his own body on the cross. But that of itself did not take the sin off of us. We were born after that time, and grew up and became transgressors, and the sins which were on Christ 1,800 years ago, were then on us. Isn’t that the truth? If not, what was the matter with you when you called on God to forgive you? Was the Holy Spirit telling you a lie? Was it false? I don’t believe the Holy Spirit tells falsehoods; but that when he convinces a sinner that he is lost and is a sinner, it is the truth. We were condemned, we were under the curse, we suffered death in trespasses and sin, ages after Christ suffered on the cross.

Why did Jesus bear our sins in his own body on the tree? To the intent that we being dead in sins should become dead to sins and “live unto righteousness.” When did that take place? In our life-time, of course. And those to whom Peter wrote had been healed by Christ’s stripes. Not, however, when the stripes were laid on Christ; not before they were born, but after they had sinned and become sick. It was when they “returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of their souls”; after they became sheep. Remember the old London Confession says: “They (the elect) are not justified until the Holy Spirit doth in due time actually apply Christ unto them.” And Christ is applied to them when they believe. Never before. John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.” That is what is the matter with a man until he is brought to believe in Jesus.

Brother Daily went again to Dan. 9:24, and gave us a lot of Greek. He said that the ending of the transgression and the sin means the final end of them. It means, he says, that the sins of God’s people were so completely taken away and “sewed up in a bag” that they were finally ended. How does God hold them against you then? If that is so, how did God hold them against you when you were under conviction, lost and going down to hell? Was it a lie? Who made you feel that way? the Holy Spirit? Was the Holy Spirit imprinting a falsehood on your heart in convincing you that you were lost? That sense of being lost is your experience, if you have a Christian experience.

If Brother Daily is right, why doesn’t God come to the sinner out here going on in sin and doing contrary to God’s commands, and say, “John Smith, your sins were on Christ; your debt was all paid back there, and you are mine!” Why does not God do it that way? Nay; he reproves the man of sin and makes him feel that he is a sinner and is lost, which is a falsehood if Brother Daily’s doctrine is true, because he is not lost; he is not guilty.

I want to present an affirmative argument here. If I get to them I will notice his questions later. I have only one more speech after this in which to bring in new argument.

It is specifically stated in the scripture that a brother for whom Christ died may perish. I brought this in incidentally before. 1st Cor. 8:10, 11, “For if any man see thee which hast knowledge set at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols; And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?” The revised version renders this passage thus: “For through thy knowledge he that is weak perisheth, the brother for whom Christ died.” A positive declaration. The brother here cannot mean one of God’s children, cannot mean one of Christ’s sheep, for we both agree that “they shall never perish.” See John 10:28. So the brother here is a brother in Adam, and one for whom Christ died. And he perishes! The Greek word is apoleitai. It is the word used in scripture to mean final destruction. Take a few illustrations: John 3:16, “Should not perish (apoleitai) John 10:28. “Shall never perish (apolountai)”; Matt. 10:28, “To destroy both soul and body in hell (apolesai)” Rom. 2:12, “For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish (apolountai) without law.” In all these passages we have a form of the very same word used in this passage 1 Cor. 8 :10- 11, for perish. “Through thy knowledge the weak brother perish (apoleitai) for whom Christ died.” So I find a man that perished, so stated, in so many words in the Book of God; so Brother Daily’s proposition cannot stand.

Jesus Christ gave himself as a ransom price for all, and some will not be saved; hence, not all for whom Christ died will be eternally saved. 1st Tim. 2:1-6, “I exhort therefore, that first of all supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men; for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and accept able in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for us to be testified in due time.”

Paul wants prayer made for all men. The Old London Confession says: “Prayer is to be made for things lawful and for all sorts of men living, or that shall live hereafter; but not for the dead.” London Confession page 78, paragraph 4, Kirkland Edition. Paul specifies some sorts. “For kings!” That took in Nero. He was to be prayed for. “And for all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life.’’ That took in all the wicked rulers.

Let us look at the passage carefully. Paul desires prayer for all men. In this age no blessing goes to any in answer to prayer except through Christ. Paul wanted prayer made for Nero, the basest of Emperors. God our Saviour wills, that is desires, wills in the sense of desire, the salvation of all. The Revised Version (American) puts it, “Who would have all men to be saved. “Compare Matt. 23:37. The Diaglott renders it thus: “Who desires all men to be saved.” The verb is the same used in Matt. 23:37, where Jesus says to Jerusalem, “I would; you wouldn’t.” God wills, in the sense of desire, that all men be saved. He desires that prayers, intercessions and giving of thanks be made for all men. For the same all men, which included Nero, Christ gave himself a ransom. Prayer for all; God’s desire for the same all; Christ a ransom for the same all.

Jesus bought the race—all men—the world. See Matt. 13 :44, “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.” The field is the world of mankind; the treasure is the body of Christ’s people. See Psalms 135:4, “1 the Lord hath chosen Jacob unto himself, and Israel for his peculiar treasure.” But he bought the world for the sake of the treasure.

In 2nd Peter 2:1, we are told of some whom the Lord bought, that shall perish. The Greek verb for night is dyopai. The same word occurs in the following passages: In 1st Cor. 6:19-20, rendered “bought.” “Ye are bought with a price.” In Rev. 5:9, rendered “hast redeemed.” “And hast redeemed us to God.” In 2nd Peter 2:1, where it is rendered “bought.” “Denying the Lord that bought them.”

Don’t forget 1st Tim. 4:10, “He is the Saviour of all men, but specially of those that, believe.” Suppose it is God, the Preserver! How does God deal with men now? Only through his Son. So von may make it God the Preserver, if you want to. That God is Christ.

Jesus died for every man. Heb. 2:5-9. 1 will begin at the 6th verse: “But one in a certain place testified saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownest him with glory and honour; and didst set him over the works of thy hands: thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.” There is the dis-junctive conjunction, but what it introduces is referring to the same men. Then we have the statement, “But we see Jesus,” etc., introduced by another dis-junctive, introducing Jesus’ work, which work looks back to the same man. Thu he was made a little lower than the angels, that he by the grace of God, should taste death for every man; for my friend, for me, for sinners, and for everyone. Paul speaks of the race. “What is man?” “What is the son of man?” This without modification. Jesus tasted death for everyone Thus he brings many sinners to glory. He is the special Saviour of all those that believe.

Let us see if we can look back a little to the remark able speech that we had a while ago more particularly. He says that according to my theory, when a man is in jail and the fine is paid, the man doesn’t get out until he believes. He confuses the illustration. He says if God draws a sinner, the sinner comes. He wants to get on the next proposition. I expect when he gets there he will want off. Where did he find out that every one God draws comes? He agrees, however, that God does the drawing and the sinner does the coming! The issue, then, would be whether every one that God draws comes or not, but as that is not the question before us I will not discuss it further now.

He comes to 1st John 2:2, and says that “Our sins” in that passage means the sins of only the elect among the Jews. I dare him to show a single syllable to indicate that it means that. The passage does not mention Jew or Gentile. A man can prove anything that way. The name of “Jew” or “Gentile” is not even mentioned in the Book of John or in the first epistle of John. So this is purely an assumption on Brother Daily’s part to meet the emergency.

He says the whole world means the elect among the Gentiles. Where does he find this? In the Book of Supposition? He doesn’t find it in the Book of Luke, or Matthew, or Mark, or John. or in the Psalms, or in Proverbs, or in any of the rest of the Books. Just in that hook of Suppositions, located now in Brother Daily’s cranium. He says now that we never could have been justified in Christ’s death except through his resurrection. He wanted me to say whether Christ’s death, without anything else, benefited anybody or not. I said it didn’t. He said the resurrection proved Christ’s death satisfactory. Were we not saved by his resurrection? Brother Daily has been quoting. “Much more being justified by his blood, we shall be saved by his life.” Doesn’t that mean his resurrection? Salvation by resurrection as well as by death? He tells you that Brother Throgmorton says the church was future. He says in that sense he was a member before his regeneration. Oh, yes; you were not a member back there then; just a future member.

Time expired.

Last Updated ( Wednesday, 18 October 2006 )
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The Primitive or Old School Baptists cling to the doctrines and practices held by Baptist Churches throughout America at the close of the Revolutionary War. This site is dedicated to providing access to our rich heritage, with both historic and contemporary writings.