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HOLDER’S SECOND NEGATIVE

Brethren, Moderators, Mr. Nichols, Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am before you to make the closing speech tonight, and I will make the 30 minutes just as short as I possibly can.

I want to call your attention to some things my friend presented in his last speech. He left alone the ‘elect’ question, or Holder’s idea, he said is, that the ‘elect’ is the whole world, or the saved. And he wants to know now where I can find the word “world” having reference to the saved? Well, I presented it to him two or three times while I was in the affirmative and now he wants me to start proving something. Elder Nichols, you are in the affirmative now! You remember that! I am following you. But, I shall be glad to give it to you: Verse 4 in the first chapter of St. John, “In him is life, and the life is the light of men.” Verse 9: “This is the true light, which lighteneth every man that cometh into the world.” And you have said, Sir, that the heathen dies and goes to hell without the gospel. Can there be any light of Jesus Christ without the gospel? Now, if you should answer this, Sir, you have yourself tied hand and feet. There is the whole world: “And this is that true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” Christ the life, which lights. We are born into this material world, and are natural creatures. We are born into the spiritual world, and are children of God; and the life of Christ lights every one of you in that “world”—every one of you. Even John the Baptist, three months before he was born, leaped for joy, being filled with the Holy Ghost. We could not explain the mystery.

He wants to know now if all infants dying in infancy are ‘elect’? Yes; do you say some of them go to hell as ‘non-elect’? There never has an infant died in sin. There is a way to prove my position: When the Lord Jesus Christ comes to separate people who shall be consigned to hell, he says, “Depart from me, ye workers of iniquity, for I never knew you.” Although infants have the sin of Adam by nature, as it is in their flesh, as in the fall of Adam—(Rom. 5:12), and his proposition says so (and I can prove it by Campbell if he denies it! I have Campbell’s “Christian System, “their articles of faith! And Campbell makes that idea just as strong as I do, on the condition of man in the fall!); all right, Sir: in the fall they are sinners by nature, but they are not sinners by practice. And all infants dying in infancy will live in heaven. Jesus said this, and I offer it as a negative argument: “Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.” (Mk. 10:14-15.) Now you differ with the lesson: the Saviour said that whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God just exactly like the little infant receives it, he shall not enter therein. And everyone in this audience should know what the little word “as” there means. “Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.” Very well, Bro. Nichols: What does a little child DO to receive the kingdom? Now, your proposition says he is a sinner. Get yourself out of the predicament! Your proposition, Sir, says he is a sinner! What does the infant have to do to get out from under sin? You should take the Old Baptist doctrine, Sir, or truth as you said, else stand before God in Judgment by that which you are teaching. “By thy words thou shalt be judged, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”

He said I did not refer to certain Scriptures: I was on 1 Cor. 8:12. I gave that. Came down to 2 Pet. 2:1-2. Now I am to Rom. 14:15. I have no reason to be uneasy about these Scriptures. I will quote the whole text. I will promise you one thing, when I quote you a text I will not cut it in two, and leave you to guess what it teaches. If I have to do that kind of debating, I shall get out of the field! Here is the text: “If thy brother be grieved—(he did not quote it all—and this is in that verse—) “If thy brother be grieved with thy meat, destroy not thy brother with thy meat, for whom Christ died. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou charitably l Destroy not thy brother, for whom, Christ died.” That is, show charity, do not cast him away; do not throw him away; be kind, be tender to him.

Now, where is that book, Brother Nichols? It was here on the desk and I want to quote your language again.

Nichols: (Hands the Nichols-Weaver Debate, and Holder’s booklet, to Holder).

Holder:    Page 162.

Nichols: (Asks about a comma added between “Jesus” and “Christ’’ in Acts 2:38.

Holder: Well, not necessarily, because I am not running a printing press, and I am not responsible for that little comma being at the wrong place. And I am not that crooked, if you must complain to make a point. You know sometimes the typist may make an error.

(Speaker stammered, some in audience laughed.)

Holder: Well, if that is funny, go ahead and laugh. My tongue was just a little thick: I did not have a bug in my mouth, but I did not say it just like I should have said it. That is all right.

“He reminds us that the prodigal son”—now this is Nichols’ language—“that the prodigal son was not baptized when he was forgiven by his father. No, for this is a parable, and not a case of conversion. He was a son when he went away, and primarily represents a restoration.” Now this represents the restoration of a backsliding child of God. But the point is—and he did not want you to see it, but I am going to show it to you: the point is, he used that word “perish” to show you will go to hell. Now then he has this fellow restored that said “I perish with hunger.” You can see that if you have two eyes, and I know you have good eyes. Here is your little book. (hands book to Nichols): I hope you shall read it more closely.

Acts 10:43, the remission of sins. . . through his name, those believing “shall receive remission of sins.” “Remission of sins” in the sense of that text is a continuation of forgiveness—forgiving our sins daily, and receiving those things as believers, not alien sinners.

“I want this one thing,” he says, “now I Want Holder to show me where I am presenting one thing that cannot be proven in the Bible.” Why, I have presented it’ to him. Here it is: I will give you a big stick of candy if you give it to us: I want the text in the Bible where the expression is used, “baptized into Christ”——“baptized into his death”—”baptized into one body”—with the word “WATER” in it. You know, “We speak where the Bible speaks, we are silent where the Bible is silent!” “We use Bible phrases for Bible things!” Bring it up, Nichols! And unless you do, you should quit telling the people over the country when you take a man down to the creek you baptize him “into Christ”—for there is not a word of truth in it. It is not in the Bible. Tie will not quote it, because I know it is not there, and he does also.

“No promise to the heathen,” he said. Well, by the way: he quoted the text, just before he said it: “The Scripture, for seeing that the heathen should be justified by faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” And he knows the heathen is an untaught person. (Gal. 3:8.) It did not say “a man that had been taught the gospel.” It said a “heathen.” But he does not believe a heathen has faith; he does not believe a man has faith until the gospel is preached to him.

Romans 14:15—I have given you that.

All right, let us go a little further here now, and see what he has submitted for us: Faith is a condition, he says. I want him to learn something about conditions. He keeps that word “condition” in his mouth all the time. Faith is not a work, Elder! Faith is a noun. Listen to what the Bible says: “Circumcision availeth not any thing, neither uncircumcision, but faith which worketh by love.” (Gal. 5:6.) Faith works. It is not a work. It is a principle that God puts in the heart in the work of regeneration. He keeps telling you that I say the individual is saved by grace without faith. I have not said it, and I am not going to say it. I quoted the text a number of times, that we are saved “by grace through faith; and that not of yourselves.” If you get that little not” out of the text, Elder, other “nots” will slip like bow-knots! “That not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not of works lest any man should boast.”

All right. “Believe unto life everlasting.” Believe unto life—“We are not of them that draw back, but of them that believe unto the saving of the soul.” “We,” “We,” Paul and the ones he is talking about. You want to make that an alien sinner, Sir. And when you make that an alien sinner, you put Paul right in the same class. You won’t quote the whole text— not guilty of such a thing! “We are of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” Paul, the writer, and those to whom he was writing.

“I came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.” Well, that is fine; not a thing in the world in it concerning your proposition. Your proposition says “all the sinful race of Adam,” that “Christ died for all the sinful race of Adam,” and he has not told us how the infant is saved; he will not tell us how the infant is saved. Luke says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein.” (Lk. 18:17.) I have the infant receiving the kingdom of God just like the adult receives it. And if the adult receives it through Christ, and the little fellow that dies in its mother’s arm receives it the same way; and up in heaven— the place we sing about and we preachers are trying to tell you about — there is but one family, and those little infants will be there through Christ, like their fathers and mothers will. If you deny that, you deny the truth. You say a man will go to hell if he believes not the truth: “By thy words thou shalt be judged, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”

“We thus judge, if Christ died for all, then were all dead.” Quoted it half—half-way he stops; he said I am half right. Well, here is a man that is half right that quotes it all, and he quotes part of it. “For we thus judge, that if Christ died for all, then were all dead, that they which live should henceforth no more live unto themselves, but unto Christ who died for them.” (2 Cor. 5:14.) You say a sinner must do something to get life, and your text you quoted in part there said “when you live—or they that live—from the time you live, live no more unto yourself, but unto Christ who died for you.”

Then he wishes to prove conditional election. Brother Nichols, did the Lord Jesus Christ make choice of you from the foundation of the world? If he did, I dare you to say that you met conditions. And if he did not, you are not one of the faithful in Christ Jesus. I care not which horn of the dilemma he takes. That is what you get into by fooling with “election.” We are not debating it. You brought it up, now how do you like it? You know what he is going to do? He is going to be quiet about it in the future! Let us go a little further:

The Philippian Jailer: “Believe on the Lord and saviour Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” “Thy house” is a dependent clause depending on the belief of the jailer. What happens if the jailer believes? Why, he will be saved. What else will happen l His whole house will be saved. Why will his whole house be saved? Because the jailer believed. (Acts 16:31.) That is the language, and you cannot get around it in a thousand years. Very well; now, if that is evangelical belief like friend Nichols claims to be out here working in—tell you what you do: you go around here and get hold of the fathers, and get them to believe, and it will save their families!

Well, he stated I said it was the Roman law. No, I did not; but I am going to prove it right here: Peter in a Roman prison now, and “an angel of the Lord said unto him, gird thyself, bind on thy sandals,” and so he did; “cast thy garment about thee and follow me.” (Acts 12:8.) Now skipping down to verse 18 and on the same lesson: down to the 18th verse, same chapter, “Now, as soon as it was day, there was no small stir among the soldiers, what was become of Peter. And when Herod had sought for him, and found him not, he examined the keepers, and commanded that they should be put to death.” But, he said—he knew this was coming—he said, “Holder will try to show now they all escaped; but Peter escaped, and they did not escape over here where Paul and ‘Silas were.” But there were other prisoners there, and that old jailer knew the Roman law, and he knew that he would be killed. His family be put to death right before his eyes, and then he likewise if he let them escape. And they were not all disciples, like Paul and Silas, either. But if it were not the case, it does not suit him: because Paul would have said, “Believe, repent, confess, be baptized, that puts you into the body of Christ—not just believing (and he borrowed that from the Ladies’ Birthday Almanac!) And, then, you still do not have life: you must live on probation! And if you live right, you have it at the end for what you do!” This is “Campbellism.” I know it like a book.

“He added to the word of God,” Nichols says, “on Acts 22:16, last night,” when I asked him an unanswered question: I said (—I do not want your dollar, Bro. Nichols, I was just joking you. I do not want a thing you have. Did you hear what I said “I have something better!” Eph. 2:1-5, “You hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and in sins.” My friends, the Bible is rational. I do not say the sinner is dead like a stone, and he knows it. I do not say a sinner is dead like a dead horse, or a dead mule, or cow, and he knows it. But the sinner no more has spiritual life, than a cow has the life of a tree, or a fish. Spiritual life is one thing, and natural life is another thing. And the sinner is dead to that life. Now, he makes that man without life, walk four steps in order to get life. And if he should see such a thing it would scare him to death! The very idea of a man acting before life, is revolting to intelligence and to evident facts. I want to go ahead.

Very well: Rom. 11:5-6. I offer these as negative arguments: “Even so then at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace it is no more works; otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, it is no more grace; otherwise works is no more works.” Wait a minute, Paul: — I am going to be fair in this matter — Paul, did you say that salvation was by grace? No, Sir. Did you say salvation was by works? No, Sir. — I am going to be fair with you: Paul did not say in that lesson that salvation was by works, nor did he say salvation was by grace. But here is what he did say: he said, “If salvation is by grace, it is no more of works.” Now on the other hand, if Nichols is right and I am wrong—if salvation be by works, it is no more of grace. That eminent apostle said it was by grace. And if it is by grace, I am right and the gentleman is wrong.

He said I was trying to build up prejudice. No; no I am not. I have preached over this country, and in the pulpit when there were no strings on me, I tell my audiences, “If you love God, I will shake hands with you in heaven.” Now, if he wants to say that is creating prejudice, it is on him because of the ridiculous doctrine he teaches. I like to live by neighbors who show kindness—I live by two good Methodists, as I mentioned this evening. That Methodist lady is a good neighbor. She shows the life of a Christian lady. And I am going to tell you, if a man can not see the image of Christ in the spiritual relationship, with a little child of God, beyond his church borders, that man is to be pitied, and the church has nothing to make its appeal to. It is pitiable.

All natural blessings are to be had in the realm of nature. All spiritual blessings are to be had in heavenly places in Christ. Faith is a work! Faith works, and by love. But, sir, I want this one thing — I am challenging you, every inch of you, Friend Nichols, to get up here and tell me where there is an alien sinner, that sinner having faith, that sinner having faith out of Christ! I shall turn over here and submit something to him about faith: Just a minute to the subject—Paul desired to be delivered from some, and the kind this gentleman must reach, and he claims to save, by the gospel: “Finally brethren, pray for us that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you; and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men. For all men have not faith.”

He misrepresented me last night, he misrepresented me eighteen times in his first speech last night. And here is one of them: he said that I got up here and said that no one had faith. I did not say a thing in the world about it. I quoted the Bible: listen: “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men. For all men have not faith.” That is, there are some people who do not have faith. That is what the text means, and that is what Holder means. All right. If Paul wanted to be delivered from people like that, and they could not have faith unless he went and preached to them — Paul, what is wrong with you? Wanting to get away from the man that is wicked and unreasonable, and did not have faith, when he could not have it any other way than by your going to such and preaching to them!

“Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the majesty on high.” (Heb. 12:2.) If my Lord was the author of faith, Friend Nichols nor no other mortal man had anything to do with it. If he is the finisher of it, it will be consummated as the gift of God, and not a work of a preacher or preachers. All in the world the gospel can do is to perfect that which is lacking in faith—that is, teach, that men having faith may take hold of the truth, and grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth. “Night and day have I prayed exceedingly that I might come unto you and perfect that which is lacking in your faith,” said the apostle to the church at Thessalonica. (1 Thess. 3:10.)

All right. Jude again:    Jude 3, “Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered to” —alien sinners? No! Put it down: “once delivered to the saints!” There never has been a man who had divine faith who was not a child of God. Because the work of salvation by grace through faith makes him such. God is the author and finisher of it. (Heb. 12:2.) It is the “substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.” (Heb. 11:1.) “The just shall live by faith.” (Rom. 1:17.) He quoted, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation, to every one that believeth.” He stops. “For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith; for as it is written, the just shall live by faith.”

Brother Nichols: Let me give you an illustration here: There is some ink in this pen. Let the ink in this pen represent faith. (I got him in a tight when I met him before, on this: watch him and see if he bites at it again.) There is some ink in this pen. Let that ink represent faith. Now here is a faithful minister, preaching the gospel. And the gospel is revealed; I want you to get this: You quote this, yet do not seem to believe a word it teaches. The gospel is “revealed from faith to faith.” Now that (holding a pencil, not having another pen) is a pencil, but suppose it were a pen. There is no ink in it. How much of the gospel is revealed to this man, if the gospel is revealed “from faith to faith?” Eh? Eh?

I asked him when I debated with him before, “Brother Nichols, I want the man where the gospel is the power of God unto salvation to the unbeliever.” He came back and said, “Holder, so far as I know there is not one in heaven, there is not one in hell, there is not one on earth where the gospel is the power of God unto salvation unless he believes.” Here is what I said: “Bro. Nichols, were you ever an unbeliever ‘I” “Were you ever an unbeliever?” If you were ever an unbeliever there was no power in heaven that reached this man and there was no power in hell that reached this man. There was no power on earth that reached this man! There it is! You are welcome to your position.

Very well: “To be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. For the carnal mind is enmity against God, not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.” Friend Nichols, there is no way of external teaching of mankind, or animals, or anything on earth that I know of, without appealing to the mind—the five senses of man. Before there is any reasoning, the mind must work. Else you would see, but you would not know what you saw; you would feel and you would not know what you felt; you may taste, and you would not know what you tasted; you would hear, and you would not know what you hear. Now then, in preaching, man must appeal to the mind. Here is a question: I will give you a dollar to answer, and give you time to answer: Does the carnal mind (Holder steps to Nichols’ desk with a dollar in his hand) receive what you preach? I am giving you my time——will you answer it? Which mind do you appeal to: the carnal mind or the spiritual mind? And does the carnal mind receive what you preach? Now answer it: there is your dollar and you can have it.

Nichols: Do it now?

Holder:    Right now, sure.

Nichols: The passage in Romans S has no reference to one man having both.

Holder (interrupting Nichols): I said for you to answer my question.

Nichols: I will. The passage has no reference to one man having two minds, carnal and spiritual at the same time.

Holder:    You did not answer my question. My question was, which mind do you appeal to? There never has been one of your men who answered that question.

Nichols: The spiritual mind.

(Laughter from the audience.)

Holder: Fine! Fine! I have your dollar, and you may have it. Now then, Sir, you cannot reach the alien sinner because he does not have that mind. Do you want to give it up? Just whenever you do anything I will take you to pieces, Sir!

Audience: (Continues laughter.)

Holder: You have said in answer to that question you cannot reach the alien sinner, because he only has a carnal mind. You better watch, Friend. It jerks you to pieces! You have given it up, Sir! You had just as well pack your little grip and go home! You are trying to save the lost, and he does not have the spiritual mind—right in the same lesson: “For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” (Romans, same chapter, in the 6th verse—right on down.) Nichols, you have thrown this thing up. You are talking about publishing this debate? I hope he will! I assure you of one thing, I mean to buy one, and I hope everyone in this community will buy one. —I am not trying to discourage it—I wish to see a wide circulation of the book.

Again: Rom. 8:8-9. “So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God, but ye are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if so be that the spirit of God dwell in you.” They that are in the flesh cannot please God, and to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Here is the’ man he says he does not appeal to: I want to shake hands with you. I am in a good humor—Brother Bullard does not want us to talk back to each other. Shake hands with me, Brother Nichols, and tell me that the only kind of fellow you can reach is the spiritually minded, those who have life and peace.

Moderator: (Raps for time up.)

Holder:    Thank you, Ladies and Gentlemen: now go home and think about it.
Last Updated ( Friday, 02 February 2007 )
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