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HOLDER’S FIRST NEGATIVE

Brethren Moderators, Mr Nichols, Ladies and Gentlemen: I am delighted to come before you this evening—this splendid audience—and to deny the gentleman’s reasoning as he quoted in part the Scripture, and applied it along hurriedly You know why he does that? He wants me now to go right back over this chart, these charts here, and quote the entire text. He does not read through to a period in the sentence. Why, he didn’t even quote Eph. 2:8 through the entire lesson. Now on the other hand, suppose I treat his charts like he has mine over here. I would not look at a thing he says. You know why he ignores my chart over here? He is afraid of these terms right here in the center of this column. And I, in presenting that chart, as I came to my Scripture citations here, I quoted the entire text as I went down through: because I want this intelligent audience to know what Primitive Baptists believe and teach. I do not have anything to cover up. If I have, then I am not sincere.

Now, we shall notice some of these things here. I am not going to refer to all the Scriptures he has given—I tell you that in advance. I am going to notice the things that he has presented, only as the things he presents are pertinent to the proposition. I want to call your attention to some things here now: his proposition says that “the Scriptures teach that Christ died for all the sinful race of Adam, and that he offers salvation, or the remission of sins, to all alike upon the conditions of faith, repentance, confession, and baptism.” Now, if Christ died for all the sinful race of Adam, he is going to face the infant questions here now, He tried to use some of that last evening, and he thought (I suppose) he would “bluff” a little possibly (I do not say that he did; maybe he did not), and we would not have this when we came to it. This is what he dreads in this proposition: your proposition, says that infants are sinners! That is, if they are part of Adam‘s race! Now to deal with the principles of your argument. I came here and say like the old lady who said, “I believe the Bible from ‘kiver’ to ‘kiver’.” I believe that, and what is written on the ‘kiver.’ I do not believe this man’s doctrine—that is the issue. He can have a Scripture-quotation contest, if he so desires; I can quote two every time he quotes two—I can quote three every time be quotes three, because I can talk as fast as he can. It is not a Scripture contest; it is not whether or not the Bible is true; it is not whether or not the texts or the citations are correct he has given. The text does not hold certain things, I contend; the idea is, he seems to be afraid to quote the lesson and make an argument on it! That is not debating!

Now then: “he offers salvation or remission of sins to all alike.” And that little word “all” is suggestive of the persons introduced in the first part of the proposition: “all the sinful race of Adam?” Now, does the infant have to repent? confess? and be baptized? If not, you better take it out. Looks that way to me, Brother Nichols! I want you to have a good book. Brother Nichols, does the infant have to believe, repent, confess, and be baptized? If not, what did you put it in your proposition for? If you believe that, you believe in universal atonement. If you do not, Sir, you are here affirming something you do not believe. Brother Nichols, will a man go to hell if he does not believe? repent? confess? and be baptized? If so, what about the infant? That is a part of your proposition, “all the sinful race of Adam.” Now, that is his proposition, “all the sinful race of Adam,” and God “offers to all alike”—“all the sinful race of Adam”—“alike.” Is that right, Brother Nichols?

Nichols: (Nodded his head).

Holder: All right: do you baptize infants? do you have one infant in the church you belong to? do you? If you do, somebody hold up your hand; I want to see your hand. Then this man says if a man is not a member of the church he belongs to he will land in hell! Now, where are your infants? There you are.

I would not punish you that way if you were not so far from the truth.

You said a few minutes ago that we take the “word” out of the hearts of men and women. It would be a good deed if we could take Campbellism out of the hearts of men and women because it is one hundred and twenty-three years old on the shores of time. One hundred and twenty-three years, and never has been related to the truth. That is why Mr. Campbell was excluded from the Old Baptist church. He went out. He died out, with Primitive Baptist baptism. That was all the kind he ever received.

“Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things he suffered.” (Heb. 5:9.) I have noticed that.

Then, 2 Thess. 1:7-9, “Punished if they do not obey.” Now, that has been presented: “When the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with everlasting fire, taking vengeance on them that know not God and obey not the gospel,” and so on. All right, I have answered that while he was in the negative. I answered in this way: If it had said, “Them that obey not the gospel,” he might have a point in view; but “them that know ‘not God and obey not the gospel.” Did Paul “know God” before he obeyed the gospel? He surely did. And you said last night he had faith before he heard the gospel. You sure said it! 1 asked him the question last night (and that is another one of those catchy questions)—I asked him the question last night if God would hear prayer if that prayer was not offered by faith? He said not unless that man prayed by faith. All right: if that man prayed by faith, his prayer was answered. So then Paul prayed, and God answered his prayer by saying, “Go into the city and there it shall be told thee what thou must do.” (Acts 9:6.)

All right:  Here is somebody—-Saint John—(let me get my Bible and read some of these lessons for you): Saint John 12:42-43. Let me get to this chart:

Holder‘s Moderator: The other is the one he used.

Holder:  I do not remember his having referred to that.

Moderator: No, on the other side; he has turned it over.

Nichols: Turn it back for him.

Holder: Well, I do not remember him referring to this chart—I do not know whether or not he did.

(Moderator turns chart back.)

Holder: He does not have a text that he can quote that I will not take one hundred per cent. If he will quote it; and present his argument! You know why? You have heard it before: the reason—-he does not want you to catch up with him! Now, what is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander!

Now to the chart “All families of the earth shall be blessed.” (Gen. 28:14.) “In thee, and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” Ladies and gentlemen, according to the census of religious bodies, this man and his people have fewer men in foreign nations preaching the gospel, per capita, than any denomination in this country holding the gospel to be a means! He quotes that text, “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature,” and he has not yet gone preaching to them. He got after me for not preaching the gospel. Well, I have been in about fourteen southern states, and some of the northern states; and I preach the gospel. You know why I preach the gospel? I preach the power of God, you preach the power of alien sinners . . . not alien to the gospel!

But let us take this now and reason with his position on Acts 17:30: “The times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent.” (Acts 17:30.) Now, “in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed” or shall all the “nations of the earth be blessed.” And, I agree with him on that particular lesson— Christ is the “seed.” But Isaac stood there both figuratively, of Christ arid the promised seed, where it is said, “As Isaac was, so are ye the children of promise.” (Gal. 4:28.) That did not have reference to Christ, as Paul gave it in the Galatian letter. But now: here is the poor fellow in China, Hindu, and Indonesia, and in the European countries, and in Soviet Russia—they are part of Adam‘s race. “God commanded all men everywhere to repent.” Nichols, you will not dare say that there has one of these heathen repented, or that there is one of them who can repent, can believe, can confess, can be saved! Yet he gets up here and tells you this Old Baptist doctrine is ‘narrow,’ and just the ‘elect’ few! He won‘t even say he is one of the ‘elect!’ I challenge you to say you are! And challenge you to say you are not!

Nichols: I am.

Holder: When were you elected? Chapter and verse? I dare you to say when you were elected! “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with alt spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.” (Eph. 1:1-3.) Did he make choice of you? Eh? You are hurting, young man! If you were elected then, it could not be conditional! Because you were not back there. I think I know when I have a man tied! I put you in the bottle when I made my first speech, Sir.

“I perceive that God is no respecter of persons, but in every nation he that feareth God and worketh righteousness is accepted with him.” I gave him that lesson on last evening. “Cornelius, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, and gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway,” and he came right in, bit like a fish, and said, “I do not believe a man can pray, and his prayers be answered, without faith.” All right: verse 31, “Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are come up as a memorial before God this day.” And I dare you to say Peter or someone else had preached to him! All right: now Peter comes along—that Old Baptist preacher—and he begins to describe people like Cornelius. Why he said

(Some laughter from audience.)

Holder: (Funny, is it, gentlemen? Do you wish you could do that? When you get to where you think you can handle that, why, come along. We have men who can handle you!) All right, that Old Baptist preacher said this: “For I perceive that God is no respecter of persons; but in every nation” — see the promise up here (pointing to chart)? “in every nation he that feareth God and worketh righteousness” provided he will believe, repent, confess, and be baptized—then God will accept him! That Old Baptist preacher said that kind of fellow is accepted.” “is accepted.” What kind of fellow was he? He was cleansed. (Acts 10:15.) He was a just man, and of good report. (Acts 10:22.) God said to Peter, “Call not that which I have cleansed common or unclean.”

While I think about it I will get another one of his proofs. here: he offered: “He will tell thee words whereby thou and thy house shall be saved. “(Acts 11:14.) Now get it, please, Brother Nichols: “For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that ye should walk in them.” (Eph. 2:8-10.) Now, listen, Brother Nichols: I have told you “words whereby you and your house,” and Mr. Jones’ house, and Mr. Smith’s house, or Mr. Robert Johnson ‘s house, or any one else on earth who then, or at the present time-—if you are not saved that way you will land in hell. You heard me? Because God has but one way of saving. And Paul agreed. (Eph. 2:8-9.) Christ’s way works, but here is something that will not. You know what anti-Christ is? Anti-Christ is anything that sets itself as a rival, or in the place of Christ, or in the name of Christ when it is not a friend of Christ.

The gentleman substitutes four conditions, and he cannot reach the infant with them. If his proposition is the truth, there is not an infant in heaven since Christ hung on the cross! Unless he gets up here and tells you they repent, believe, confess, and are baptized. And he does not practice it. Now, he does not believe infants go to hell; but, you know: I made him do something when I met him before! He said a while ago he did not word the proposition; if you did not, you are the man that sent it to me. And you wanted the same proposition, Sir; and I refused to sign anything else. Now you have what you sent me; how do you like it? You better go along and debate, don’t you think?

Let us go along, now: “Sent to be the saviour of the world.” But, if he was sent to be the saviour of the world, then faith, repentance, confession and baptism does not do the saving. He was sent to do that. And, do you know? he made that display about the word “world:” and part of the time—he got back here—and what he wanted to make you believe my position was every place where “world” appeared, Holder meant the ‘elect’ “world.” He says that was Holder‘s position. No, no; here is one right in your same lesson that you have been quoting all the time: 1 Jn. 2:2, “He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” Now, here is “our sins” set over in contra-distinction to the “whole world.” If the “whole world” is all of Adam‘s race, who is meant by the term “our sins” right over there?

Audience: (Some laughter.)

Holder: Funny, is it? You cannot answer it. Are you afraid to handle it? That is right. 1 Jn. 5:19, “We know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.” All right: here we have the people who are “of God,” and in contra-distinction now to “the whole world” lying in wickedness. Which crowd are you in? Which group are you in, Brother Nichols? Now, in 1 Jn. 4:5-6 we have this: “Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome the world. For greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them—he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” And he said last night that that had reference to false prophets. That the “world” heard false prophets. All right, Sir: just as sure as they hear you, you have described yourself as a false prophet because the sixth verse there says, “He that knoweth God, heareth us. He that is not of God, heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.” (1 John 4:6.)

But he says I did not notice where he said those who “believe on him shall receive remission of sins.” Brother Nichols, you should know the forgiveness of sins is like this: I need forgiveness tomorrow for the sins of tomorrow, and I need the forgiveness of sins today for my sins today. There is a difference in the “forgiveness of sins” and the removing of the guilt of sins. And then, if it were his way, it would not suit him because part of the believers receive remission of sins, then die and go to hell! Well, if he will carry that on through, it is reasonable, but as he travels along in the way that God forgives the sins of his people—God quit forgiving sins—God quit remitting sins, as he has it! Some of them go to hell! It does you no good, because believers do not reach and receive remission of sins, they reach it at baptism!

“That the world through him might be saved.” “God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through him might be saved.” “The world through faith, repentance, confession, and baptism might be saved?” That is your proposition—stick to your proposition!

All right: “He came to save the world.” Jesus came to do that. Your proposition says that faith, repentance, confession, and baptism does it! Stick to your proposition!

All right: “Died for all the world.” What if he did? There is the man over there in China; he cannot repent, he cannot believe, he cannot confess, and this man has not gone yet—that is a command, Elder! Does a man have to obey the commands to be saved? If so, why have you not gone into all the world and preached to the heathen? They cannot believe until he preaches to them, he said that. They cannot believe the gospel. Believing the truth and the gospel is inseparable. Believing in God is broader and there is a difference: every child of God under the sound of my voice here tonight believes in God. Good Methodists do; and Presbyterians do; Missionary Baptists do; but you differ with Holder, some differ with Nichols. Nichols says you will go to hell; I say you are in error. There is the difference. God’s children in learning the truth have a life-time business. It is something that God’s people should hear, and hear again, and be taught and taught again, and, learn, and learn again, and Nichols says that you have GOT to hear it, believe it, learn and obey it, or go to hell. (He has not learned all about it himself; if he had he would not be here in this debate!) All right: “For the sins of the whole world”—I have gotten to that.

“For the life of the world”—“Gave himself for the life of the world.” Well, Nichols does not have life. Not a member of his church has life. But Nichols said last night he did have—exception to the rule! Do you not imagine he gets lonesome in there? The people over this country have heard you fellows say, as you ridicule Baptists and run them down for saying they have eternal life, and you say it is a prospective matter, and that you must live obediently unto death to get it. But last night I got Nichols in a tight and he said, “Yes, I have life.” Well, aren’t you mighty lonesome in there where all the rest of them do not have it, Brother Nichols?

All right: you do not have a text presented, Brother Nichols, I will tell you what you do when you get up again: you quote one text—just one—you used Heb. 2:9. I am telling you ladies and gentlemen, the word “man” is not in Heb. 2:9. The word for “man” is “anthropos” and the word in Heb. 2:9 is “pantos.” Greek scholars, when they come to it, frankly admit—Dr. John Gill, one of the best Hebrew and Greek scholars of all time, in treating upon it, tells us the word “man” is not in the text. And he tells us who it means: see his body of divinity. It means somebody. Yes, that is right—it does mean somebody. It means every one. “Every one” who? Every one he “brings to glory.” Every one that he is not ashamed to call them brethren. Every one that he said down there in the context, “Behold I and the children whom thou hast given me.” Let him deal with the context of Heb. 2:9. Now, if he will get up here and quote a text, to prove his proposition—I am ready to pay respect to his argument.

But he said something again about Acts 2:38. I took it away from him. “This is my blood of the new testament which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matt. 26:28.) “Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the remission of sins.” “John did preach the baptism of repentance, for the remission of sins, saying unto the people” certain things. All right: did John have to preach the baptism of repentance—in order to remit sins? See there?

Now, here we have the same Greek phrase, exactly the same Greek phrase; and the same in the English: “For the remission of sins.” (Eis Aphesin Hamartion.) All right: now, Jesus shed his blood, nearly 2,000 years ago. Let me tell you with all the respect that a man could possibly have, the Lord, when he hung on the cross, when he hung there in the midst of jeers, and the mocking mob that spit on his face, and with the shameful crown platted and put on his brow, and when that old Roman spear pierced the side of the Lord, and the fountain that Zecharias spoke of was “opened for the house of David, and for the house of Jerusalem, for sin and uncleanness,” the Lord remitted the sins of everybody that will ever reign with God in heaven. And if this man does not believe it, he does not believe in the Lord. That is plain, and I mean to maul you with it until you get off your position or prove it. Your position is a shame, and without respect at least for the Lord, enough to think about your theory set up taking the place of Christ. If you are not saved through him, you are lost. “This is my blood of the New Testament which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Mt. 26:28.) He shed his blood nearly 2000 years ago, and he remitted sins when he paid that sin-debt. All right, now Peter comes along, and he tells some who are pricked in the heart, and cried out saying, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?” he said, “Repent, and be baptized, for the remission of sins”—that is the way Nichols would quote it!

But it does not read that way. If it did, those verbs would show action toward the remission of sins. It does not read that way! Here is the way it reads: “Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus, the anointed One for the remission of sins.” The “anointed One” for what? “For the remission of sins.” Jesus was anointed, he shed his blood, and remitted sins. Now, you do this “in the name of” the One who remitted sins. “With a view to the One, with a view to the blood;” and if my Friend Nichols does not believe it, he does not believe in Christ, as Saviour.

“What think ye of Christ? whose Son is he?” Why, they said he is the Son of David. All right, if he is the Son of David, then why did David say, “The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand until I make thine enemies thy footstool?” He could rot explain that to save his life, and stay with his position. He is just like the Jews. Jesus Christ has never made his enemies his footstool. HE will never do it; you know how it is going to be done? It will be done when people believe what this man preaches, and repent, and confess, and get some of these men to “dunk” you—that is what does it! That is the position he must take.

Again, “Through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died. When ye sin so against a brother, and wound the weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.” It seems there that someone was committing a greater sin than the weak brother. But wait a minute, Friend Nichols: You have said too much. Nichols said in the debate with the Holiness preacher, Weaver, with reference to the prodigal son, and I give you the page, 162, you said there, when the prodigal son said, in Luke 15:17, “I perish with hunger.” And you said that man was a disobedient child of God. Yes, Sir; right over there (pointing to a copy of the Nichols-Weaver Debate.)

Nichols: (Calls for the book.)

Holder: (To his moderator: Down under those books; Nichols-Weaver Debate, Page 162.) I will get it for you, Brother Nichols.

All right, let us go to 2 Pet. 2:1-2, “False prophets among the people.” The false prophets: “But there were false prophets among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.” That word “Lord” there is used about five times in the New Testament. And the word “Lord” is used over five hundred times under another word. Here it is used under the word “DESPOTES,” and it means like the Father over his creatures, or a master over slaves.

Moderator: Time out.

Holder:    Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

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