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Second Night: Holder's Second Affirmative PDF Print E-mail
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Mr. Nichols, Ladies and Gentlemen: I come before you to affirm for the next thirty minutes the same proposition which I affirmed last evening.

(Noise on the public address system interrupted Mr. Holder, so he said, “Just wait a minute till they get that machine right.” The amplifier was adjusted, and he continued.)

I want to call your attention while possibly it is fresh on your minds, my friends: Mr. Nichols did not read Berry correct yet—right before his eyes! “Christos, verbal adjective, anointed; as a proper noun,” he says, “the Messiah, the Christ, see . . .” (certain references). If you want to find out where it refers to a proper noun, “see” certain references. And every one of you knows that if it is a “verbal adjective,” it is not a proper noun! He is just exposing himself—that is all he is doing!

He said I was not taking notes. There was no need to do so! I knew this audience could see the ridiculousness of how you are playing up and down on that word ‘world.’ (He is defeated before he gets to his proposition.)

Then he violated a rule—flagrantly violated the rule! When any man (I care not who that man is) charges the Primitive Baptists with teaching that God foreordained and predestinated and unconditionally damned people in hell, that man does not know what he is talking about, or he is not honest enough to tell the truth! Now, Sir, if you will apologize for it, I will not expose you! He misrepresented me in almost everything he said in his speech just made.

Here is the picture of the man: he quoted last night Acts 17:30, “The times of this ignorance God winked at, but now commandeth all men everywhere to repent.” He says if you do not believe, if you do not repent, and if you do not confess, and if one of these men do not take you to the creek and baptize you “unto,” or “in order to,” the remission of sins, when you die it is just too bad. When you Baptists die, it is just too bad! (You know, he said I was going to ruin myself with the folks up here, if I did not be careful!) When you Presbyterians fail to do like Nichols says, it is just too bad! When you Methodists fail to do just like he tells you, it is just too bad! You will land in hell! You can feed him out of your basket as a good neighbor, and die and go to hell—though you pray by your bedside every night to God! And though you have the love of God shed abroad in your hearts! It is BE DIPPED OR BE DAMNED! That is his god! That is all the god be has, it seems. He no more cares about the death and suffering of Jesus Christ than he does the frost on a frozen pumpkin! He is an unbeliever, and I will prove it right here: watch me and see if I do: “Brethren, my heart‘s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they might be saved. For I bear them record, that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they, being ignorant of God‘s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes.” (Rom. 10:1-3.) This man is going about to establish his own righteousness, and does not believe that! So, an unbeliever! He has not met the first condition of his proposition.

And here is another thing: “Circumcision availeth not anything, neither uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.” (Gal. 5:6.) Faith will not strike a lick without love. (Gal. 5:6.) “Love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.” (1 Jn. 4:7.) Every person in this intelligent audience tonight who loves God, and knows God, whether you know what this man preaches or not, “is born of God.” That is what the text teaches: “Love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.” Every one who loves, knows God. (1 Jn. 4:7.)

“This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” life, that they might know; “LIFE,” that they “MIGHT KNOW!” Mr. Nichols says if you do not “know,” you will never get life! “Life” that they “might know.” “This is life eternal, that they might know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.” (St. John 17:3.) “In him is life, and the life is the light of men. “(St. John 1:4.) All right, now: down in the ninth verse, “That was the true light which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” The “life” lights. Mr. Nichols says, “I do not have the life!” “I do not have life!” “I do not have the life of Christ.” I will take it back if you say you do. Do you have the life of Christ?

Nichols: Nods head affirmatively.

Holder:    All right; did you have that life when you were baptized? Did you? Did you?

Nichols: Do you want me to answer?

Holder:    Yes.

Nichols: I rose “to walk in newness of life,” Rom. 6:4.

Holder:  Did you rise to walk in the newness of life that you had, Sir, at that time?

Nichols: I didn’t have it until I obeyed the gospel.

Holder:    Did you rise to walk in the newness of life that you had when you were baptized?

Holder‘s Moderator: Brethren, listen: speak to the audience, Brother Holder.

Holder:    I have got him tied, and I want to hold him there. You are nailed there! “Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Rom. 6:11.) If you baptize a man, Sir, who is dead to sin, you baptize a man who is “alive.” Were you “alive” when you were baptized? I have got you tied, hand and feet, nailed there! Now “buck up” and get out of the harness!

I do not like to do this; if he would debate, I would not do it. He is not debating; he wants to put on a show. He dooms and damns to hell every one that doesn’t belong to his church. And I am standing before you this evening as a professional hypocrite if his doctrine is the truth. I am not afraid of this community running me off, or thinking hard of me, either. I remember that sound truck a few weeks ago that was going up and down the road. This is the reason why you did not get a place to debate, I suppose. Now, if you want to start that…

And you knew, Sir, you were flagrantly violating the rule when you charged me. The word “predestination” is used four times in the Bible; and each time used it has reference to God’s work in saving his people from the guilt of sins. Men are damned for the guilt of sins. And when they die in their sins, that is what they are punished in hell for.

Now I want to notice some more things be has to say. I have him! He said, “I rose to walk in newness of life!—But, Holder, I am not going to tell you whether I had this life or not!’’

Gal. 3:8. Brother, I read that just exactly like it is given in the King James Translation. Absolutely correct! (You got up here and said I misread it.) “The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.” (I can quote it by memory-—don’t have to read it!) And how is that last statement there? It bears the idea that God has people among the heathen. And they are saved through the promise God made to Abraham. That is exactly what it teaches. Nobody knows it better than Friend Nichols, perhaps.

Now, he says, “Christ’s name.” Why, there are about ninety-four appellations or terms that Jesus Christ is designated under in the Bible. And the angel said his name shall be called “Jesus for he shall save his people from their sins (Mt. 1:21.) Over here we have in the name of "Jesus Christ;" "In the name of Jesus Christ." "Jesus" is the name. ''Franklin Delano Roosevelt, President of the United States.'' Nichols would say "President" is the name! No; "Franklin Delano Roosevelt" is the name; and "President" is an appellation. I wonder if he knows what the word "appellation" means, anyway? Well, “Christ" is an appellative—that is, it is a title; something that designates the Son of God in his office, as Saviour.

He is tied on Acts 2:38!—And he has not even got to his proposition to affirm! I want to go back over here and continue my line of affirmative arguments now.

I was down to this—right here: "All spiritual blessings are to be had in heavenly places in Christ." We are not discussing the doctrine of election. But what if we were? Let me get him again a tight right here: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of this world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love." (Eph. 1:2-3.) Now, Elder, I am going to ask you a question: Were you chosen in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world? Or, were you chosen in time? I quote (backing up just a little): "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful which are in Christ Jesus." The saints at Ephesus, and all the faithful which are in Christ Jesus. If he is one of the faithful in Christ Jesus, here is what he is confronted with: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, who bath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ according as he hath, chosen US in him before the foundation of the world, that WE should be holy and without blame before him in love." There it is; and lie will not get up here and admit that election goes that far back. And I know this one thing: he cannot come and put it in "time" and give the text where he was elected. Are you one of the `elect?' Let us know when you were elected.

All “spiritual blessings” are now to be had in heavenly places “in Christ.” (Eph. 1:3.) “Faith is a fruit of the spirit.” Faith is “in Christ.” Now, let me give you something right here about faith, if I can get to it right quickly: “Faith is a fruit of the spirit.” (Gal. 5:22.) And we are told here that “all spiritual blessings” are to be had in heavenly places “in Christ.”

Paul desired to be delivered from such as the gentleman claims to reach, and (by the gospel) claims to save. Quoting: “Finally brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you, and that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men. For all men have not faith.” Paul would be delivered from men who have not faith, when this man says they cannot have faith unless he goes and preaches to them! Paul prayed to be delivered from that kind of men! And he assigns the reason: “because all men have not faith.” (2 Thess. 3:2.)

Now, he said Holder has people saved without faith. There is not a word of truth in that! And here is the text—he stopped last night, and has good brakes, because when he got to his place, he just stopped suddenly, like that. He said, “For by grace are ye saved, through faith,”—and there he stopped! But here is the way it reads: “For by grace are ye saved, through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.” (Eph. 2:8-10.) Tit. 3:5, “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

All right: “Believers in Christ have eternal life.” St. John 6:47, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” That is a possessive verb there, if the gentleman cares to notice it.

“Believers in Christ are passed from death unto life, Jn. 5:24.” “Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that heareth my words, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed from death unto life.” And the American Standard Version says, “Has passed out of death into life.” Believers are passed from death unto life.

“Believers in Christ are not condemned, St. John 3:18.” Alien sinners are condemned; therefore alien sinners do not believe. Believers are born of God. Alien sinners do not believe; therefore alien sinners are not born of God.

“Believers commanded in name of Jesus Christ to repent and be baptized.”

“Do you baptize a lost sinner? a ‘goat’? or do you baptize a saved sinner? a ‘sheep’?” He says, “I baptize a lost sinner.” He said he would not knowingly baptize the saved, last night.

All right: “Is your candidate for baptism born of God? (1 Jn. 5:1.)” (He will not deal with these. He ties himself when he comes to them.) “Is your candidate for baptism born of God? 1 Jn. 5:1.” “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ, is born of God”—not condemned.

“Is the one whom you baptize not condemned?” “He that believeth is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world. And men choose darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil.” (St. John 3:18-20.)

“Is he justified from all things?” “By him all that believe are justified from all things, from which he could not be justified by the law of Moses.” (Acts 13:39.) Do you baptize one, Sir, that is “justified from all things”?

‘‘Does he have eternal life?” “I write unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and this life is in his Son.” (1 Jn. 5:12-13.)

“Where do you find justified, uncondemned, born-again alien sinners?” Bring up the passage, Brother Nichols! I want it! Also, where do you find “Baptized for the remission of sins?”

There is the chart, and I wish you would pay some respect to it though my mouth is closed upon what you say.

All right: we are getting along fine! I have plenty of material here to lay before him. There is one thing I regret in this debate: I have met a number of these men—I have never met a man yet from any denomination that has stood before our audience and kept repeating and putting words in my mouth which I did not say, and positions I did not take— like this man has! You know why? He is in desperation on this thing! He knew it before he came over here. We had a debate before on the same propositions! He came over here conscientious—he was a conscientious objector, but he came any way.

“Baptized into Christ,” he said. And I must notice that: 1 Cor. 12:13—And he noticed my little book! That little book is all right. (I have a good number of them, and they will be here at the speakers’ platform tomorrow night. I have plenty for every one of you, if you want to buy one; come and get one and take it home with you. They are only fifteen cents, and I want each of you to have one.) In that book I said that the individual is “baptized into Jesus Christ.” Now I am not using my words—-they would not be any better than Nichols’ words; I am quoting 1 Cor. 12:13. “By one Spirit are ye all baptized into one body.” Now, that is what put you in the body of Christ, whether he believes it or not. Just exactly like he would baptize you—and you know, he baptizes “in” water, but he never goes down “into” water, and he never comes “straightway” out of it! If he baptized a man “into Christ” while he was in the water, did you come straight-Way up out of Christ when you took him up out of the water? Now, that is not debating; there is not a thing in the world to that statement—not one thing in the world, only just trying to put a little thought there to confuse you. Will he say that sinner reaches Christ in baptism? He will not do so in this debate! He will say it over the radio, and say it when he is the speaker and you are the listener, and there is no comeback; but— hear it: “By one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jew’ or Gentile, bond or free; and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.” Now’ that is the AGENT—the Holy Spirit! And it is a “he” and not an “it.”

He said, “Baptized by the Spirit” means by the teachings of the Holy Spirit. All right now, Elder Nichols: “Do you baptize your candidate? or does the spirit of the teaching you do baptize the candidate? That is silly! It does not say anything short of this one thing: The Holy Spirit BAPTIZED them. It is not the “baptism of the Holy Ghost,” and he knows I am not teaching that. “Baptism of the Holy Ghost” is a miraculous gift—and it was not given to alien sinners, either. Don’t you get up here when I get to Cornelius—and here I come: I have your position! You said this with that Holiness preacher, you said the house of Cornelius, Sir, was “baptized” with the Holy Ghost before they heard the word by which they were to be saved. (And I have the book right over there on the desk.)

All right: let us go to Saul of Tarsus, now. This man, Saul, was present, consenting to the death of Stephen. Acts 8:1, “And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.” “He made havock of the church, entering into every house, and hailing men and women committed them to prison.” (v. 3.) He punished the saints, compelling them to blaspheme: “And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted them even unto strange cities.” (Acts 26:11.) On his way to Damascus, he was yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples: “And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,” and so on. (Acts 9:1.) And as he “came near Damascus, suddenly—” I want this audience to get this word here: if you will turn to the definition of the word “suddenly,” the very first word that enters into the definition of it in the lexicon is “unexpectedly.” “Suddenly” a light shined from heaven, and a voice spake to him saying, “Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus, whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he, trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?” I asked the gentleman a while ago, “Does God hear prayer when not offered by faith?” (Saul said, “Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?”) And Nichols said, “No! Not unless prayer is offered unto God by faith.” Saul offered that prayer unto God. And you answered the question. It says God heard his prayer. All right: if God heard his prayer, by faith, then he had faith before Ananias preached he gospel to him! And you said in our other debate, Sir, that he was saved before he was baptized!

Nichols: (shakes his head negatively.)

Holder: Don’t deny it! Why, yes you did! Here is the question I asked you, Sir: I asked you in that debate, “Does God call, authorize, or send, an unsaved man to preach the gospel?” And you put a great big “NO” on it and handed it back to me! And I have a Moderator over there as a witness, and this brother right here was there. You are tied hand and feet, Sir! Here is a man (Saul of Tarsus) who was saved before he heard the gospel! Say, Elder: will you deal—when you get to it—with Acts 22:16? It says, “Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins.” Did Paul actually wash away his sins when he was baptized? or did he do it in a figure? in a symbol? or in a likeness? Brother G. C. Brewer, that fine old gentleman—and we had the cleanest debate I have yet had with these men—that man was honest enough to say, “Brother Holder—” (This man will not call me “Brother,” and I do not care—it works both ways! If I miss him in Christ, I will hit him in Adam! He does not act like a “brother” sometimes—I hope I am mistaken about it!) But, anyway; that old man said, “Yes; it does mean a picture; it does mean a symbol, or a likeness, or a figure.” And it does, because the Bible says so. All right. Nichols, did Paul actually wash away his sins? or did he wash away his sins in a figure? There it is! Here is a man who was saved before he heard the gospel, called to preach the gospel before he heard the gospel; and Nichols said (in answer to my question a while ago) that Saul had faith before he heard the gospel! He let that thing slip too quick—he thought I was trying to work on the house of Cornelius, and I got him on Saul of Tarsus!

Let us see about Cornelius now. “Cornelius, a devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, and gave much alms to people, and prayed to God alway,” and (v. 31) God said, “Cornelius, thy prayer is heard.” My opponent said that God does not answer the prayer of an alien;—that prayer is not answered by faith unless that prayer is unto God. All right: Cornelius’ prayer was unto God. And God heard his prayer. (And this man, Nichols, said Saul had faith: that man, Sir, had not heard the gospel of Jesus Christ.) And this took place before he heard the gospel. In verse 15, God said to Peter, after he had seen the vision where the sheet was let down from heaven, having four corners and four-footed beasts and creeping things and fowls of the air—the voice said, “Rise, Peter, kill and eat. Peter said, Not so, Lord; for nothing common or unclean hath entered my mouth at any time.” God said (v. 15), “Call not that which I have cleansed common.” Now, let us give you something here: that Greek word (“Catherizo”) which is translated “cleansed” is identically the same word that is used in 1 John 1:7, where it is said, “the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin.” It means to cleanse. And there is given here one thing, ladies and gentlemen, that you can put down and you can stay with: go to the Old Testament, take the divers kinds of washings, take the cleansings, take the many and sundry kinds of ceremonies that depicted the good things to come, and were the shadows of good things to come; neither in the Old Testament nor in the New Testament do you find but one way God cleanses a sinner:—that one way is by the blood of Jesus Christ.

And God said to this Old Baptist preacher here (if he bad not been an Old Baptist preacher, he would have challenged God for a debate! “I challenge you!” like Nichols, you see:

“The very idea of a man being saved before the gospel!”). “Call not that which I have cleansed common.” Then Peter, over there in Acts 10:28, said, “God hath showed me that I should call no man common or unclean.” What did you mean, Peter? I mean that it has been the idea of the Jews that Gentiles were not clean, that they were dogs, and that they were cut off. Therefore—I have been shown that God has a people, and that God has taken a people out of the Gentiles for his name. (Acts 15:14.)” What was I that I should withstand God?” (Acts 11:17.) Peter also said, “I perceive that God is no respecter of persons; but in every nation he that feareth him and worketh righteousness is accepted of him.” What? Here is a man “accepted” of God! Before he heard the gospel! Why? He feared God and worked righteousness. Here is a man accepted of God, before he heard the gospel. Why? Because— Nichols said God heard his prayer by faith before he heard the gospel! (I have you tied!)

Then over there in verse 47, “What doth hinder these to be baptized, seeing they have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?” Peter said again, “God has poured out on them the Holy Ghost, as he did on us, from the beginning.” (Acts 11:17.) Did he pour out the Holy Ghost upon alien sinners? Eh? No, Sir! And you know he did not! Then he did not do so on alien sinners when he poured out the Holy Ghost on the house of Cornelius and gave them that miraculous power to ‘‘speak with tongues and magnify God.” The very idea of an alien sinner “magnifying God” before baptism—or any other time — is a dagger in his side!

Let us go a little further: we now take up Nathaniel‘s case. “Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. Philip findeth Nathaniel and saith unto him, We have found him of whom Moses in the law and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. And Nathaniel said unto him, Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip said unto him, Come and see.” Then Jesus saw Nathaniel coining to him he began to preach to him, and he began to explain the truth to him, and after Nathaniel heard the gospel, and heard the explanation of it, he accepted it and believed, and repented, and so on? No, sir! Not on your life! “Jesus saw Nathaniel coining to him and said unto him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom there is no guile. Nathaniel saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before — Before — BEFORE the preacher, BEFORE Philip called thee, I knew thee, or saw thee under the fig tree. Then Nathaniel said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of God.”

Moderator: Rapped for time.

Holder: Thank you, ladies and gentlemen.

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