header image
Home arrow Writers arrow Nichols-Holder Debate arrow First Night: Nichols' Second Negative
First Night: Nichols' Second Negative PDF Print E-mail
Written by Holder/Nichols   



Mr. Moderators, Worthy Opponent, Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am now to make the last speech tonight, and I can speak thirty minutes as quickly as anyone! I appreciate the good attention you have given us. I invite your attention now unto my friend’s speech. He said that I did not answer an argument that he made. My friend, that is reckless, and you will lose the respect of this intelligent audience if you continue that sort of thing. He said, “He has not answered an argument that I made,” when I took them up one by one throughout his speech, and made reply. If I missed one, I will answer it right now if he will tell me which one it was. Which one did I miss in your speech?

Holder:    You want me to answer?

Nichols:    Yes.

Holder:    You took them all up and complained.

Nichols: That is the way he points it out—he knows I did not miss one, or he would give it. That is reckless. I like my friend, I really do, and I don‘t want him to lose the respect of the people by making reckless statements.

He charged that I do not believe that Christ made the atonement and met the condition that reached the end of salvation and forgiveness. Yes I do. He reached the “end” when he pardoned and forgave our sins. But it was after we had obeyed the gospel, met the conditions. He went all the way to forgiveness.

Mr. Holder  made light of repentance and baptism remitting sins. Why, I do not believe such. I do not believe repentance remits sins. It takes a person—a divine person to remit sins, and repentance is not a person. God remits sins, Christ remits sins. But repentance is a condition upon which God does it. So, don’t misrepresent me as believing repentance and baptism remit sins, or forgive sins. That is also reckless.

He came to Acts 17:30 and argued that men could have repented without Christ dying for them—that all men could quit their meanness—without the death of Christ being for them. But he overlooked the point I made. It was not as to what they might voluntarily do, but God commanded it of them. It says, “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now COMMANDETH ALL MEN EVERY WHERE TO REPENT.” (Acts 17:30.) Would God trifle with sinners, and tantalize them by commanding “all men every where to repent” when he had made no atonement for them—had no blessing for them? That is the point! My friend brought up the ease of the heathen, and ridicules the idea that they can’t believe unless they hear, and can’t be saved unless they believe. Paul says, “The scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen THROUGH FAITH.” (Gal 3:8.) My opponent does not believe this, but thinks God will justify the heathen without faith, or anything as a condition on their part.

Paul reasons on the matter this way: “For whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?” (Romans 10:13-14.) Ho draws his conclusion and says, “So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (v. 17.) That is why Jesus said, “preach the gospel to every creature.” (Mk. 16:15.) It is so they can believe and be saved, by calling, etc. The old Primitive Baptists do not believe in getting the gospel to the lost. They only ‘feed the ‘sheep’ “—have no message for every creature in all the world, no good tidings for “all people!” The angel said, “I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall he to ALL PEOPLE.” (Lk. 2:10.) How could the news of the birth of Jesus, his death, etc., be good tidings—good news— “TO ALL PEOPLE” unless all are included in the atonement? There is the point.

Since my opponent brought up the heathen, I want to ask hint: DID CHRIST DIE FOR ALL THE HEATHEN?—Did He? Did He? If so, they will ALL be saved, according to his doctrine—what he is affirming. About the last thing he said when he sat down was: “All will be saved for whom Christ died.” If Christ only died for the heathen, we in America, and in enlightened countries, will all be lost, and “ignorance is bliss!” Then it would be a fine thing if the whole universe of men were heathen so all could go to heaven! But the Bible says, “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and ALL THE NATIONS THAT FORGET GOD.” (Psa. 9:17.) People are not going to heaven in their sins. He ought to preach the gospel to the lost, as gospel preachers do. Paul said, “But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are LOST.” (2 Cor. 4:3.) Where is the passage—the chapter and verse—that says the lost will be saved without the gospel? The Bible says the gospel “is the power of God unto salvation.” (&m. 1:16.)

“Know not God.” My friend says it is true that when Christ comes again he will be “taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel” (2 Thess. 1:7-9.) He talked about “know not God,” and wanted to know if I know God. That is not all in that quotation. It says he will take vengeance on them “that know not God, AND THAT OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL.” It is not enough to know there is a God—all the lost must obey the gospel. A man can’t properly know God unless he obeys God. “Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 Jn. 2:3-4.) Hence, he asks if I have eternal life. (Jn. 17:3.) Yes, I do. I have it in promise, in prospect and hope. He says “we” and “us” refer to the saved in Rom. 5. Well, John says, “This is the promise that he hath promised US, even ETERNAL LIFE.” (1 Jn. 2:25.) Paul said he was “in hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot he, promised before the world began.” (Titus 1:2.) And again, he says, “But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience WAIT FOR IT.” (Rom 8:24-25.) Unto Timothy Paul said, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called” (1 Tim. 6:12.) Like Timothy, I have not laid “hold on” it yet. On purpose be has drawn me off on the subject of apostasy, for he was miserable and suffering in trying to meet me on the other subject. I know him! He says he debated me; yes, and I debated him, too. I was there!

Audience:    Laughter.

Nichols: He said there is no mention of “water” in connection with Rout. 6:3. Well, the Holy Spirit is not MENTIONED there either. If it could not be “WATER” baptism because “water” is not MENTIONED in the passage, for the same reason it could not be Holy Ghost Baptism. You would have to learn what it is from the context. I know it is not Holy Ghost baptism for there is a resurrection in this baptism, and none in Holy Ghost Baptism. “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death that LIKE AS CHRIST WAS RAISED UP front the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.” (Rom. 6:3-4.) There is something in it “like” Christ’s resurrection. In verses 17-18 Paul calls it “THAT FORM OF DOCTRINE”—form of the burial and resurrection of Christ. “Ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.” (Rom. 6:17-18.) Also this proves obedience is necessary. “Ye OBEYED from the heart that “FORM OF DOCTRINE,” and “BEING THEN made free from sin” they “BECAME servants of righteousness.” The “form” of doctrine included their death “to sin:” “How shall we, that are DEAD TO SIN, live any longer therein?” (V. 2.) There is their death. Then, “BURIED WITH HIM BY BAPTISM” (v. 4); “RISEN WITH HIM” (v. 4). So there is their DEATH, BURIAL, and RESURRECTION as a “form” of the doctrine of CHRIST’S DEATH, BURIAL AND RESURRECTION. It says they “obeyed” this “form,” and were “then made free from sin” and thus “became servants of righteousness.” Nothing but water baptism can fill the bill here. It can’t be Holy Ghost baptism. In such baptism they are not “raised” out from under its power, etc.

But my friend says, it is “by one Spirit:” “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.” (1 Cor. 12:13.) The “Spirit,” he thinks is the element; but they were raised out of the element in which they were buried. (Rom. 6:4.) And the Spirit is not the administrator in Holy Ghost baptism; Christ did that. “He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.” (Matt. 3:11; Jn. 1:33-35.) Now, does my friend believe in two baptisms for today? Paul says, “ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE BAPTISM.” (Eph. 4:5.) Let him try to untangle these things. “By one Spirit,” means by his direction, by his leadership: “As many as are LED BY THE SPIRIT of God, they are the sons of God.” (Rom 8:14.) The Spirit LEADS people in their becoming children of God. The Spirit “LED” them, through Peter, to be baptized on Pentecost when he said, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.” (Acts 2:38.) “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.” (1 Cor. 12:3.) But how do we say Jesus is Lord “by the Holy Ghost?” By his teaching through inspired men. He says, “Let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both LORD AND CHRIST.” (Acts 2:36.) By such teaching of the Holy Ghost they could say, “Jesus is the Lord” . . . by the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor. 12:3.) They could say it “BY” the Spirit, when taught “BY” the Spirit. When Peter said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,” Jesus said, “Flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 16:16-17.) God by his Spirit revealed time fact that “Jesus is the Lord,” and we thus say it “by the Holy Ghost,” when we say it BY HIS WORD. Just so, we are baptized in water “by one Spirit”—as “led” by the Spirit through his word. Any baptism not directed by the Spirit, is a bogus baptism. (1 Cor. 12:3, 13.) Paul says the sacrifices and offerings were “OFFERED BY THE LAW.” (Heb. 10:8.) This does not mean the law got out and killed the animal, etc., directly. But these were “offered by the law” when offered according to the teaching of the law.

So, “by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body” (1 Cor. 12:13), when baptized in water by the instruction of the Spirit in the word. “Thou gayest also thy good Spirit to INSTRUCT them.” (Neh. 9:20,) “And testifiest against them BY THE SPIRIT IN THY PROPHETS.” (Neh. 9:30.) David said, “The Spirit of the Lord SPAKE BY ME, and HIS WORD was in my tongue.” (2 Sam. 23:2.) By his word the Spirit teaches, leads, and guides. The gospel was preached “with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven.” (1 Pet. 1:12.) The Spirit, by this gospel, leads people to be baptized in water, into the one body. Were the apostles in the “one body” by Holy Ghost baptism before Pentecost. I thought you teach the church was established before Pentecost. And then, were the Samaritans still out of the “one body” after they believed and were baptized in Acts 8:12, and before the Spirit fell on them in Acts 8:16-18? Is that when they entered the one body? The body that includes all Christians? You better pay attention to these things, write them down, and not just sit there and look at me.

He wants to know if I baptize children of God. No, and Gall. 3:26-27 does not say they were children of God before baptism! No, it did not! Notice the tenses used. I ask you school students to pay special attention: Paul was writing the churches in Galatia, and said, “YE” meaning church-members addressed—-those who had already been baptized—”YE ARE “—present tense—”Ye ARE all the children of God by faith in Christ .Jesus.” (Gal. 3:26.) “For as many of YOU”—you members of the church—” For as many of you AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED—past tense—into Christ have put on Christ.” (Gal. 3:27.) They had “BEEN BAPTIZED” before Paul called them “children of God by faith.” No use to grin at it, that is it! That will stand when the world is on fire!

In reply to my illustration, he said my coat did not put itself on me, and according to that, Christ does not put himself on us in baptism. True! If Christ were putting himself on people he would put himself on all alike—every sinner on earth for he does not want any of them lost. “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering to usward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9.) Men are to “put on Christ” in baptism, and not expect him to put himself on them, unconditionally. The Galatians had to act in getting into Christ and putting him on, just like my friend was acting when putting on his coat and getting into it. “For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.” (Gal. 3:27.) He may say this is passive voice. Well, so are “Be seated, ““Be baptized,” “Be married” passive voice; but we are not unconditionally seated, baptized, married, etc.

Again, on Mk. 16:16, he says I denied in cold print that this means “salvation in heaven.” Yes, it is present salvation from the guilt of sin. Yes, it says “shall be saved,” but “shall” does not necessarily mean up in heaven. “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43.) Does this mean remission up in heaven, just because it has the word “shall” in it, like Mk. 16:16? According to my friend, one can die a sinner, get remission in heaven, since “shall” is connected with the promise of remission! “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” (Mk. 16:16.) He asserts this is to be up in heaven. Then he said, if it means present salvation then it is not essential to going to heaven. Now that is reckless! Is present salvation not essential to going to heaven? You can’t die in your sins, die unsaved, without present salvation, and go to heaven. Jesus says, “I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.” (Jno. 8:21.) You can’t die in your sins, die without remission of sins, or salvation, and go where Jesus is. So when Jesus said, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved” (Mk. 16:16), he was meaning present salvation in this life. He was talking about the lost, the world and every sinful creature in it, giving terms as to how they could be saved—talking about unbelievers, the unsaved, etc. He was not telling his apostles—the saved— how to be saved in heaven. He said to them, “Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.” (Mk. 16:15-16.) Luke’s record of this commission calls it “remission of sins.” (Lk. 24:46-47.) He said “repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations.” And I have shown that remission is conditional on man’s part, as in this passage: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him SHALL RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS.” (Acts 10:43.) “Believeth” (Number 1) “Shall receive remission” (Number 2). That is one of perhaps twenty-five other passages that I used, which my friend paid no attention to tonight.

Heb. 5:8-9, “Author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.” He asks if I have “eternal salvation.” Yes; when Jesus pardons sins they are eternally forgiven. “Their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” (Heb. 10:17.) I have eternal salvation from the guilt of sins that are forgiven, never to come into condemnation of those sins again.

Let us notice Heb. 2:9 again. “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor that he by the grace of God should taste death FOR EVERY MAN. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons into glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through suffering.” (Heb. 2:9-10.) My friend argued that he died for “sons,” not sinners, because “sons” are mentioned in the next verses of the context. No! He tasted “death for every man.” (v.9.) This made Jesus perfect—qualified him to be a perfect captain to lead “many sons unto glory”—to heaven. He does not take the lost sinner to glory—to heaven. He as “Captain” leads none to “glory”—to heaven—except children of God, those with remission of sins. He will not take any sinner up to heaven. You must turn from your sins, be saved from sin, become children of God—sons—to get to heaven. And that is conditional on man’s part. He “tasted death for every man,” makes “sons” out of those who “obey him,” then as a “Captain” leads the “sons” to “glory,” which is heaven itself.

“Ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.” Gal. 3:26. Did he notice my point on this? Oh, yes, he put on a great bluster, etc., and wanted me to look up at him, instead of writing down what he was saying, but there is no argument in that. He accused me of being the most artful dodger he ever saw, and thus and so. Well, I am willing to let the people examine our arguments and decide for themselves who is dodging, and who is honorably meeting arguments!

Matt. 10:16. To the twelve—-including Judas!—Jesus said, “I send you forth as sheep.” (See verse 5 also.) My friend made light of it, and said Jesus promised the ‘sheep’ eternal life, but Judas was lost. Yes; but eternal life was conditional even to the ‘sheep.’ Jesus says, “My sheep hear my voice and they follow me.” (Jn. 10:27.) He did not say those who may quit hearing his voice and cease to follow him are still his ‘sheep’ anyway! “They follow me . . . and I give unto them eternal life.” He gives eternal life only to those who “hear” and “follow.” What about those who cease to hear and follow? Will they also get eternal life? if he wants to discuss apostasy, I shall follow him off on the side-track far enough to expose him, then return to the main-line and discuss the issue—which is whether or not the salvation of alien sinners is conditional on their part.

1 John 5:1, “Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.” He needs a passage that says unbelievers are born of God that they might believe that Jesus is the Christ! He has the ‘elect’ heathen, etc., “born of God” and “children of God’’ without faith. He thinks unbelieving heathen (the ‘elect’ ones) are children of God—born of God—without faith in Christ. But it takes faith to make one a child of God:

“Ye are all the children of God BY FAITH in Christ Jesus.” The next verse shows it is obedient faith: “For as many of you as HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED into Christ have put on Christ.” (Gal. 3:26, 27.) He wanted to know if I baptize believers? Yes. He says, then I baptize saved persons. No; the “born” believer (1 Jn. 5:1) is the baptized believer. (Gal. 3:26-27.)

Acts 2:38 again. (To Moderator: pass me that other Testament, please). My friend says he is willing to stay with me on Acts 2:38. He asserts that the word “Christ “in the passage means “anointed,” and it means Jesus was “anointed for the remission of sins,” instead of repentance and baptism being “for remission” in the passage. But I challenge my Friend from head to foot to prove that the “anointing” of Jesus was the shedding of his blood! I want proof! I shall not take his word for it! Jesus was anointed three-and-one-half years before the cross, at his baptism, when he received the Spirit. “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor.” (Lk. 4:18.) “God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost . . . who went about doing good.” (Acts 10:38.) I deny that the anointing of Jesus was the shedding of his blood.

Holder: (Shakes his head.)

Nichols: All right; he is shaking his head and has given up the argument. Thank you! THANK YOU! THANK YOU, SIR! Since he has gone back on it, now why did he quote Mt. 26:28 about the shedding of the blood in that connection? Why did you quote it thus?

Holder: (Rises to his feet.)

Nichols: I am violating no rule.

Holder: They know you haven’t. (Resumes his seat.)

Nichols: He knows it, too. Why did you quote it?

“Christ “is a proper name, as in ‘‘What think ye of Christ? Whose Son is He?” Here the pronoun “he” refers to the noun “CHRIST.” But the word “anointed” is a verb, not a noun. He changes the noun ‘Christ” (Acts 2:38), to a verb—”anointed.” He hopes to get by with that sort of thing with this intelligent audience! Peter did not say the word “Christ” meant ‘‘anointed.’’

The Greek word means here the “Messiah.” “Christ” is front ‘‘Christos,”—the Messiah. The passage means “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Messiah for the remission of sins.” (Acts 2:38.) Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (p. 673) says of ‘Krio’ the word for ‘anoint:’ “To anoint . . .; in the New Testament only tropically of God a.    consecrating Jesus to the Messianic office, and furnishing him with powers necessary for its administration . . .” then cites Lk. 4:18. This is the anointing of Jesus.

Now, the word in Acts 2:38 is not “Krio,” but “CHRISTOS,” and Thayer says it means: “In the N. T. it is used 1. of     the Messiah, viewed in his generic aspects . . . 2. It is added as an appellative . . . , to the proper name ‘Jesus;’ a. . . . Jesus    the Christ (Messiah) . . . ; without the art. . . . Jesus as Christ or Messiah.” (Thayer’s Lexicon, p. 672.)    

Moderator: Raps for time.    

Nichols: Thank you very much, and be sure to be with us here tomorrow night.

Last Updated ( Wednesday, 10 January 2007 )
< Previous   Next >


The Primitive or Old School Baptists cling to the doctrines and practices held by Baptist Churches throughout America at the close of the Revolutionary War. This site is dedicated to providing access to our rich heritage, with both historic and contemporary writings.