Brethren Moderators, Worthy Opponent and Kind Friends:

     I am again in the negative of the proposition. The first thing I want to call your attention to is that my brother makes complaint about me not answering several pages of typed questions that he read and which he had ready before this debate began, and I don't know how long he studied over them, or whether he even copied them from somebody else. I don't know where he got them, but I know that he wrote them before this debate began. He didn't take the time while I was speaking to make up his questions, but he framed all of his questions before this debate began, and he wants me to answer them immediately, and says, "Oh, he can't answer them is the reason that he doesn't." Now, what is sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander. If you had four weeks or six months to write them, I ought to have just a little time to look at them, don't you think?

I don't know whether I will answer them or not. I haven't even looked at them yet.

     He wants to know if there is anything that is impossible with God or not. Yes, there is one thing that is impossible with God and that is to lie. That is impossible. It is not possible that God can lie.

     Isaiah xiv. 24, "As I have thought, so shall it come to pass." I believe that citation. I believe it with all my heart and soul. "As I have thought, so shall it come to pass." There is nothing about that that says that God predestinated all things that come to pass, both good and evil. Not a thing in the world. You haven't found it today, and when this debate is ended and you read your record of what you have said, you will find that you have not said a thing in the world that favors your proposition; not a thing in the world. You haven't quoted one passage that says that God predestinated everything that comes to pass. He has not quoted a Scripture with predestination in it-not one.

     He said if I don't believe the doctrine I would not believe God on it. Well, why complain about it? According to your doctrine, I couldn't believe Him on it. According to your doctrine, God predestinated that I couldn't believe Him on it. If He predestinates everything that comes to pass, I couldn't believe it. I suppose that God predestinated that I couldn't believe it, and then predestinated that Brother Rhodes would tell me that I ought to believe it when it is predestinated I couldn't believe it.

     "He has created all things for Himself, yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." I believe that. God created everything that was created and without Him nothing was made that was made. That doesn't say a thing in the world about God predestinating whatsoever comes to pass. Not a thing in the world. It is as silent as the grave on the proposition that He predestinates what comes to pass. I believe that Scripture and I believe what it says.

     Then he comes and makes an argument in his question, "could anything happen that God did not want to come to pass?" Over and over and over. When I answer his question tomorrow and you read that record-if you read it-you will find out that is true. Could something come to pass that God didn't want to come to pass? Rape, lying, stealing and murder come to pass. Does God want it to come to pass? Does God want that? I want to know if He wants that. Can you find a place in God's Book where he says it, or are you speculating just a little? He said that the devil was a liar, just like Brother West says he was. Brother West, he said, hit the nail right on the head. Then, God created the devil and he had to be a liar. God predestinated that and fixed it, I suppose. Could he have kept from lying, if God predestinated that he be a liar and the father of liars, and a murderer? Did God predestinate that he be a murderer and predestinate him to be like he was? He was a murderer. Did God predestinate the murders of the devil?

     I asked him the question, was it legal to rob a bank, so he says. I didn't ask him that question. I didn't say that. I didn't ask him if it was legal or illegal. I asked him if God predestinated that he rob a bank. The word "legal" was not in the question.

      ELDER RHODES (interrupting): I think you misunderstood me. I asked you if it was legal to rob a bank.

     ELDER WEST: You asked me the question?

     ELDER RHODES: That is right.

     ELDER WEST: You were not accusing me of asking the question? No, it is not legal to rob a bank. It is illegal to rob a bank, according to the Bible doctrine, "Thou shalt not steal." But if God predestinated that he should steal and he has to, the predestination of God would be legal because you couldn't keep from it. It would be legal in the sight of God because he fixed it and it couldn't be any other way. He said, awhile ago, "Could something come to pass that God did not want?" I guess He wanted that thing. God wanted him to rob a bank. Did He say, "You are not going into that bank? I am not going to let you?" Did He say, "You are not going in there; but go in and steal all you want to?" Did He say, "You cannot take any more out of there, or any less, than I have predestinated?" You just have to get out of there exactly what He predestinated that you would get out of the bank.

     I have asked him time after time if prophecy is causative. Did prophecy cause Judas to betray the Son of God for thirty pieces of silver, or was the prophecy because he would do it? Or was it just fulfilling the predestination of God? Was that God's will? Tell us if God was willing and wanted that to happen. Did God predestinate that he just take thirty pieces of silver?

     ELDER RHODES: Yes.

     ELDER WEST: That, and no less?

     ELDER RHODES: That's right.

     ELDER WEST: He had to take just what he did?

     ELDER RHODES: Yes.

     ELDER WEST: And they had to take Him and nail Him to the cross, just like they did do?

     ELDER RHODES: Yes.

     ELDER WEST: And commit the act of murder that they did, and then say that it was caused by the Lord's predestination, and that is charging consequences?

     ELDER RHODES: Pardon me, Elder West. I don't mind you doing this whenever you wish, but I said that the secondary causes, and tried to emphasize that, the wickedness in their own hearts and love for thirty pieces of silver, was what moved them to do that. Predestination is no more causative than you say foreknowledge is, and I don't believe it. Every time you charge that, you charge something that I don't believe.

ELDER WEST: I asked you the question awhile ago, if what Gad predestinated was fixed?  ELDER RHODES: Yes, sir.

     ELDER WEST: Did God fix it?

     ELDER RHODES: Yes, sir.

     ELDER WEST: Well, then, if He fixed it, how in the world is it charging consequences for me to say that he fixed it?

     ELDER RHODES: We are not here to say how He did it, but whether He did it or not.

     ELDER WEST: You said He did it. I said that you said He did it, and you say “you are charging consequences." Let me ask you this question: Did He fix all things to come to pass, Elder Rhodes?

     ELDER RHODES: Yes, sir.

     ELDER WEST: Does it have to come to pass?

     ELDER RHODES: Yes, sir.

     ELDER WEST: Because He fixed it?

     ELDER RHODES: No.

     ELDER WEST: He fixed something and it doesn't have to be because He fixed it?

ELDER RHODES: All other causes came in with that.

ELDER WEST: God fixed it that way, but it doesn't have to be that way. Is that what you say?

     ELDER RHODES: That is not the moving cause in the hearts of the wicked men.

     ELDER WEST: Well, I am asking you if He fixed it.

     ELDER RHODES: Yes, I will say He fixed it.

     ELDER WEST: Can't you debate with me in your own time? Do you want same of my time to make your speech?

     When I asked to hold the time, I was trying to get you straight.

     ELDER RHODES: I do not believe that Gad in His infinite love and leadership of His spirit leads men to wickedness, and that is what you are charging.

     ELDER WEST: You do not believe that He fixed all things that came to pass?

     ELDER RHODES: I believe He fixed all things-He fixed it, but-

     ELDER WEST: He fixed it, but He was not the cause of what He fixed. He fixed same thing, but He was not the cause of what He fixed. I never heard of a man fixing something and not being the cause of what he fixed. Will you tell us for the record how in the world God fixed something and was not the cause of what He fixed? I am honest, because I want to know how that can be. I want you to tell me exactly how He fixed something and was not the cause of what He fixed. I will rest a little and let that soak in. God fixed something, and yet was not the cause of what He fixed. Shame! Shame! Shame!

     He said that I played upon the Greek and Hebrew, and that there was not a Greek or Hebrew scholar in the house. How do you know that? Will you please tell me wherein the definition I gave in Hebrew or Greek was right or wrong? You have to know something about it yourself before you can determine whether a man doesn't know anything in the world about it, don't you? Are you a scholar? If you are not a scholar, how do you know whether I am one or not?

     ELDER RHODES: Well, I have information, which I think I can produce, that you are not.

     ELDER WEST: Is the definition correct or not? I was giving the definition. I was making an argument on the definition. I asked him the question, Did God command something and predestinate something that could not come to pass? He said, yes, that God commanded Pharaoh-will you give me that citation where He commanded Pharaoh to do something? Didn't Moses talk to Pharaoh? Did God deal directly in speaking to Pharaoh? I would like to have the citation on that.

     He said that these troubles have to come to pass and must come to pass. I suppose he used that in predestination, but if I say that he used the words "they must come to pass," but if I used the troubles and begin to enumerate them, I am charging consequences.

     He said, "I just want to squeeze old Hitler. I wish I had him in my hands. I would just love to squeeze him." Why do you want to squeeze a man who is fulfilling the predestination of God? He cannot help it. He is fulfilling God's purpose. Why squeeze the poor old thing? He is just a tool in the hand of God, according to what you say. I wouldn't want to do a thing in the world to him. He is doing no more than God intended for him to do, nor any less than God wanted him to do. That's what you said. That is not charging consequences, is it? He cannot do any more or any less, and yet you want to squeeze him. I reckon that God predestinated that old Hitler do what he has done, and then Rhodes wants to squeeze him. Brother Rhodes is displeased with the predestination of God. God predestinated that Hitler do it, because He predestinated all things, and He also predestinated Brother Rhodes to be displeased about it. Does he have to do it because God predestinated it? Does God fix it? Why then-he said that God fixed it. God fixed poor old Hitler to do everything that he has done, and he just has to do it, because God fixed it. Yet the Lord predestinated that Brother Rhodes wants to squeeze him. He just wants to squeeze the life out of the poor old thing for doing the will of God.

     "And being used as the hand of God and all things working together for the good of them that love God." Tell us what is in that text when you get up again. Is it all things that come to pass? God predestinated it and fixed it, but yet it is charging consequences-when He fixed it for me to say that; God fixed it and it had to be that way. Yes, I think that you are befuddled. If you are not befuddled, I never saw a case of befuddlement in my life.

     Exodus vii. I and 2, and Exodus x. I and 2, where he makes reference to what God told Moses and Aaron to say to Pharaoh. There is nothing in the world in that Scripture that says that God from the beginning predestinated all things, both good and evil, whatsoever comes to pass.

There is not a thing in the world about that which you read that had predestination in it.

     Then, he calls our attention to Romans xi. 33 to 36: "0 the depth of the riches, both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are His judgments, and His ways past finding out!" Are His ways past finding out, Elder Rhodes? Are God's ways past finding out? If God's ways are past finding out, how did you find out that He predestinated everything in the world that comes to pass? "For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things; to whom be glory forever. Amen." There is not a thing in the world in that verse that implies, directly or indirectly, or states in any way, shape, form or fashion, that God predestinated whatsoever should come to pass, both good and evil. That is all that I am going to say about that.

     I have asked the question, time and time again, Did God purpose and predestinate something that was not in His intention, purpose, and design? I would like for you to answer that question.

     ELDER RHODES: What is your question?

     ELDER WEST: Did God predestinate something that He did not intend, purpose, and design?

     ELDER RHODES: That is a contradiction of terms.

     ELDER WEST: I am asking you if He did predestinate something that He did not intend, purpose, and design.

     ELDER RHODES: Will you state the question again?

     ELDER WEST: Did God predestinate something that He did not intend, purpose, or design?

ELDER RHODES: No, sir.

     ELDER WEST: He did not?

     ELDER RHODES: That is a contradiction of terms.

     ELDER WEST: Then, your proposition contradicts itself. That is the truth of the matter. His proposition contradicts itself, I think. There are some things that come to pass not in His mind; therefore, some things come to pass not in His intention, purpose, or design, and therefore, He did not predestinate it. According to you, it is a contradiction. Therefore, God did not predestinate what ever comes to pass, all things; therefore, his proposition is not the truth. I know that is a contradiction of terms; that is why I asked you.

     Is God the first cause of all causes? Psalms xxv. 19-some folks hated God without a cause. Well, if they hated God without a cause, and the first cause of all causes is God, didn't they hate God because God caused it, if He was the first cause of all causes. If there is a first cause of all causes, and God is the first cause of all causes, how in the world could they hate God without a cause? Didn't that come to pass? Did God predestinate that to come to pass?

     ELDER RHODES: Yes.

     ELDER WEST: Is that the cause of it?

     ELDER RHODES: He was the cause of all things.

     ELDER WEST: He was the cause of them hating Him. Is that the truth? Is that the secondary cause or the first cause?

     ELDER RHODES: The first cause.

     ELDER WEST: In other words, they hated Him because He was the first cause, but hated Him without a cause. Who are you going to believe, him or God's word? He said that God is the cause of everything. He said He was the first cause. That is what the record will show. He said that God is the first cause, and they hated Him without a cause. That is what God's book says (Psalm xxxv. 19). He says God is the first cause of it; they hated Him for a cause, and God is the first cause. You can believe him, or you can believe the Lord. Do you believe that some folks hated God without a cause? If they hated Him without a cause, He was not the cause of it. You are a little bit befuddled, but that is all right. We are having a good time. I will continue, now with my negative argument.

     God made man good. That is what the Scriptures say, but He didn't have a good man, according to you. If he had wanted a good man, he would have stayed good. He didn't want a good man, because everything comes to pass that God wants. That is what he says in his question. God told Adam to obey Him, but God didn't want Adam to obey Him. God said, "Now, you obey me, Adam. I have commanded you not to eat of the fruit." God told Adam to do right, but God wanted him to do wrong, because nothing can happen except what God wants. If He had not wanted it that way, it couldn't have happened. That is what you said in your argument. That is not charging consequences, is it? God told the man not to eat lest he die. That is the Scripture-but God wanted him to eat and die, according to you. Did God want him to die or not? God told Adam to dress the garden. That is what the Scriptures say. But He wanted him to sin so He could drive him out. That is your doctrine. If it were not your doctrine, why ask the question, could something happen that God did not want to happen? I will give you a nickel in the morning if he doesn't say that I am charging consequences while that is exactly what he says.

     His proposition cannot be true, because the wickedness of man grieved God at His heart. Genesis vi. 5, 6: "And God saw the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that He had made man on the earth, and it grieved Him in His heart." God predestinated that he do what he did, according to Elder Rhodes. God fixed it, and what He fixed grieved Him in His heart. Consequently, God was grieved at His predestination. Something grieves God in His heart that He predestinated. Would you predestinate something that grieved you in your heart? Aren't you a little more intelligent than that? If you are more intelligent than that, would you charge God that way, predestinating something that would grieve Him? Would you fix something that would grieve you?'

     MODERATOR SMITH: He didn't say the predestination did. It was the wickedness.

      ELDER WEST: Did he say that God fixed everything that comes to pass?

ELDER RHODES: The wickedness of the man proceeded from himself but not from God.  

     ELDER WEST: But God fixed it, so God would have to do that.

     ELDER RHODES: God fixed it so that he in his depraved condition would want to do that.

     ELDER WEST: God fixed it?

     ELDER RHODES: That is right and in predestinating all events that come to pass, He predestinated everything. He had to do it, because God fixed it. Because of having to do it was the circumstance of His will and His design and the wickedness in his heart.

     ELDER WEST: God fixing the cause, caused him to do it?

     ELDER RHODES: Certainly, it couldn't have come to pass contrary to what he wanted to do.

     ELDER WEST: That is what I am accusing you of, what you are speaking into the record. When you read it, you will see that. You said that God predestinated, and then He fixed it, according to your doctrine, and I said that He was grieved at the wickedness of man. I said, according to your doctrine, God fixed the wickedness of the man, and therefore, He was grieved at His predestination, His fixing it. I can't see where there is any tangle in that. The reason you folks are interrupting me is because you are hurting. If it were not hurting them, they would not interrupt me. You brethren over here are not interrupting Brother Rhodes, and if you do; I will quit.

     ELDER RHODES: We will not interrupt you any more.

     ELDER WEST: If you want to interrupt me, rise to your feet and ask the moderators to call time. That is the proper order.

     God predestinated their wickedness and everything that came to pass, according to him. I don't reckon I am misrepresenting that. According to his doctrine.

     His proposition cannot he true, because the earth was filled with violence. "The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted His way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth: The antecedent of the pronoun I is God. It was man that corrupted the way of God upon the earth. It was man who did that. It wasn't according to God's fixing. It was not according to God's predestination. But it was according to the work of the devil. I am going to tell you in the closing of this discussion this afternoon that God and the devil are not partners.

Time expired.

     MODERATOR CAYCE: I think I will have the approval of my brother moderator in saying that when we consider the matter soberly for half a minute, and the speakers, also, will agree with me, that there has been too much interrupting when a man is speaking. That is all out of order. It doesn't matter with me which man does it, it is out of order, and should not be indulged in.

     It is permissible, if a man gives a citation and you fail to hear what he says, to interrupt long enough to ask for that citation. But to interrupt a man while he is speaking and continuously to do so, as has been the case this afternoon, is all out of order, and with the approval of my brother moderator, we will rule that out. I believe the speakers, when they think of it for a moment, will also agree that this should not be indulged in. If a speaker is speaking and you do not understand him, you may ask him to repeat what he said, but it is even better then to wait until your time to speak and then ask him if you correctly understood it. That is parliamentary and good order. And I am going to ask that the speakers observe that. If Brother West breaks in, I am going to frankly tell you now that I will call him to order. I want to rule impartially. This is a matter which has to do with God's Book, and what He has left on record for us and should not be dealt with like that. It is bad enough for people to interrupt in political disputes and try to confuse one another. That is all that I want to say. We should think of this and observe it.

Time Expired.