Brethren Moderators, Worthy Opponent, and Kind Friends: I appear before you again in the negative of the proposition which you heard this morning.

     The brother accused me in his speech of charging consequences in the definition of his proposition when he said that embraced "all things that come to pass," in defining his proposition, and then in making his argument, he took the wicked acts of designing men who took the Son of God and nailed Him upon the cross, a base and diabolical crime, and used that to illustrate that God caused those men to do what they did do, or the Son of God couldn't have made atonement without it. And yet, he said what I said was charging consequences.

     ElDER RHODES: I don't think you are quoting me right.

     ELDER WEST (addressing reporter): Note what he says in the record.

     ELDER RHODES: I didn't say that He caused them to do that in the sense that you are making allusion that I did. I said that God predestinated or purposed them to do that in their wicked intention, but that was not the cause of it. Their wicked intention was the moving cause. They wouldn't have been there if it hadn't been for Him.

     ELDER WEST: God is the cause of all causes, according to you, every cause, yet He did not cause it. I wonder how that is. He caused everything and yet He was not the cause of it. Aren't you befuddled? If you will do your debating for yourself, and look up your own references for yourself, and make your own arguments instead of depending upon these boys here to funnel you, you will do better.

     ELDER RHODES: Thank you.

     ELDER WEST: You're welcome. I just wanted to help you that much. He said that I was complaining about him complaining. He was complaining this morning about me evading, as the record will show, and I say, according to your doctrine, God predestinated everything that comes to pass, and that I had to evade and couldn't help it, according to your argument. I didn't say that if I were evading I couldn't have kept from it. I would not evade it, because you never did look at the Scripture that I quoted, and when you said it was an evasion, whereas the Son of God said, "I lay down my life and no man taketh it from me," it is a lot easier to accuse a man of charging consequences and evading than it is to answer the argument, sir.

     He said that I brought unpleasant things into this discussion, and the only unpleasant thing that has been brought in, and I am sure it is unpleasant-I am sure it is unpleasant to him-I haven't a doubt in the world but that it is unpleasant for him-but if God absolutely predestinated all things that come to pass, it had to be that way, because God predestinated it. These men had to commit the wicked act that they did, according to your doctrine. Tell me how they could keep from it.

     He says that predestination is not causative. Well, that is the first time I ever knew that. I thought that what God did, He did because He predestinated it, and brought it to pass because He predestinated it and foreordained it.

Everything that God does, God causes. He didn't cause the wicked acts of devils, and therefore, is not the first cause of all causes. Everything that God decreed, He absolutely caused. Everything that He predestinated, the Lord caused. But he said this morning that there were some times when the word "all" is used it did not apply to everything. Will you please tell us where that is. I asked you for an example.

     ELDER RHODES: I gave you one.

     ELDER WEST: Now then, we come to the point where he said in his speech that if Adam had not transgressed at all, that grace could not abound from the standpoint of salvation of the Lord's people. If I understand the gentleman correctly, that is what he said. I call your attention to it in a diagram I drew on the board. Over on this side we have Elder Rhodes' doctrine. On this side we have the Bible doctrine. On this side we have God and here God is in evidence. He made Adam and He made Eve. I wonder if in making them, that is charging consequences. I suppose that He made Adam and Eve; the Book says that He made them; But according to Elder Rhodes, the devil was doing the will of God when he came around over here and. caused Eve to transgress, or told her what he did tell her, that he enticed and deceived her in the transgression. On this side we have the woman giving the fruit to her husband. Here is the first cause of all causes, according to you. I wonder if the devil could keep from it? I wonder if he had to? Will you tell us whether he could have kept from it or not have kept from it? So, Adam transgressed because he had to, according to his doctrine and what he said. I still repeat, over and over, regardless of the personal reflection as to who I was kin to or who I am not kin to, that I would rather be a Campbellite than to believe such doctrine.

     Now, here is God on this side of the line and there must be a discrimination, a line of demarcation drawn between this era and this Bible truth. "God is holy and just and without iniquity" (Deuteronomy xxxii. 4). So, God says in Genesis ii. 17: "In the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." He read that over to you. I don't know what he read it for, but it went into the record and will show what I said about that this morning. I asked him the question, Was God actually admonishing him and warning about that thing, or did the Lord cause him to do it?  

      So, we come on further. Romans v. 12: "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world." And Romans v. 19, "We find the woman was deceived. We find in I Timothy, the second chapter, fourteenth verse, how she was deceived. The devil said to her in the third chapter of Genesis, "Thou shalt not surely die." All right, what was the devil? The devil, as you will find in John viii. 44, was a liar. He was a murderer and the father of lies. So, for that reason the woman believed the old devil, and she absolutely went contrary to the law of God and transgressed His law, and it was the man that brought death. There was not one thing on earth said about predestinating it. And, listen, I wonder if everything that God purposed will come to pass. He said that he didn't say that God was the cause of the shedding of blood and rape and stealing and all those things. I didn't say that he did. He said that whatever comes to pass, it doesn't make any difference what in the world it is, and then he turned right around and said Hitler doesn't know that he is fulfilling the purpose of God. They raped those European countries over there and shed innocent blood. Mothers have been killed, daughters have been raped, and folks have been burned at the stake in Germany under the lash of the whip by the rule of Hitler and what he designed, and yet he said Hitler doesn't know that he is doing the will of God. Then, I have been charging consequences. All the devil is doing is fulfilling the will and purpose of God, according to Rhodes. Then, when West gets up and says unpleasant things, he says that I am charging consequences.

     He asks, "Does God know more than He predestinated?" He thought that was loaded. Yes. And then, he came to the point where the cock was crowing. That is a deep doctrine. We heard the rooster crow. Isn't that deep? That is going down into the deep mystery. God predestinated that that old rooster had to crow. He couldn't keep from crowing. Is that charging consequences? Why, he even predestinated what the little old rooster did. That is what he said. That was an awful little thing he said. Isn't the bank robber a little bigger than the rooster crowing? Why is it my brother is so willing to say that God predestinated for the rooster to crow, but did not predestinate for anybody to rob the bank? Is that unpleasant?

     ELDER RHODES: I didn't say that.

     ELDER WEST: Didn't you say that God predestinated the rooster to crow?

     ELDER RHODES: I didn't say the last part.

     ELDER WEST: You didn't say that God predestinated to rob bank?

     ELDER RHODES: I said, "all things," but He didn't move them.

     ELDER WEST: He didn't move them? He is predestinated, and is subject to all powers that be, and you have not got any power except the power that God gives you, and you work with that power in devilment, and moved by the power that is the will of God, and yet did not cause it. Well, we will let that rooster crow again and see what we can get out of him.

     He said that I said that they were delivered to do all those abominations. I said according to his doctrine they were delivered to do all those abominations. Let me ask you, could they keep from doing it? Did the Lord deliver them to do all those abominations? Do men in wickedness do the will of God? Is the will of God causative? He said that I have been so prejudiced that I wouldn't acknowledge the truth. Why not? Because God predestinated everything that comes to pass? I couldn't acknowledge the truth if I wanted to, could I, because, according to your doctrine, God predestinated that I could not. If God predestinates all things, I have to do just what I am doing. Why, good gracious alive, if he were preaching the truth, I couldn't acknowledge it unless the Lord predestinated it.

     He asked me the question, "Is the foreknowledge of God causative?" No. Absolutely not. He quoted Romans viii. 28: "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called, according to His purpose." Is that stealing and murdering? Is that what all of those things are, "To Him who worketh all things after the counsel of His own will?" Is that stealing and murdering? I wonder if it is, or I wonder if that is charging consequences. What are all of the things in that text? "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to His purpose." He said that when I get through noticing all these things in that text I will have no use for these other "all things." That is what he said. Now, what "all things" are not in that text? Will you tell us? You say that when I get through noticing these "all things", Romans viii. 28, I will have no time to notice those things not in there. Will you tell me what wasn't in there, according to your doctrine?

     All right, I am going to read a little. He said something about the London Confession; on page 35, Chapter 3, beginning with the first section: "God hath decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever come to pass.” They do not stop there, "Yet so as thereby is God neither the author of sin, nor hath fellowship with any therein.” Let me ask you here if the devil, when he enticed Eve, was doing the will of God? Did the Lord have fellowship in the wicked acts of those individuals that destroyed the Son of God? If He did not have fellowship, then He didn't have fellowship for His predestination, did He? Did God predestinate something and have no fellowship with His own predestination? According to Brother Rhodes, God predestinated everything but had no fellowship with what He predestinated. He predestinated the old rooster to crow, but yet has no fellowship for His predestination. "God hath decreed in Himself from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things whatsoever come to pass; yet, so as thereby is God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein, nor is violence offered to the will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away.” What does the word "contingency" mean? It means that cause which is based one upon another. Now, let us see. You made the argument that God is the first cause of all causes, and then cling to your London Confession of Faith. That is all that I am going to say about that.

     I am going to give you a definition, not only in English but the original as to what the word "predestinate" means. The word "predestinate" means, as defined by Webster, as an adjective, thus: "From Latin praedestinatus, perfect participle of praedestinare to predestine; prae before, plus destinare to determine. Predestinated; predestined; foreordained; fated; Theological, foreordained by God's decree or eternal purpose.” As a transitive verb he defines it thus:

     "To predetermine or foreordain; to predestine; Theo!.: to appoint or ordain beforehand by divine purpose or decree; to pre-elect.” The word in English is translated from the Greek word prohorizo, which means to limit in advance, predetermine; determine before; ordain; predestinate. The word is from pro in front of, prior to; above, ago, before, or ever; and horizo, to mark out or bound, to appoint, decree, specify, declare, determine, limit, ordain.

     The question was asked by me this morning, in connection with the fact that his proposition cannot be true because people do things that the Lord did not command, expect, neither did it come into His mind. Jeremiah xix. 4 and 5. I asked him this question: As mind means intention, purpose, and design, if God could have predestinated something that was not in his purpose, intention, and design? Could God predestinate something that was not in His intention, purpose, or design? That is what they did, something that was not in the purpose and mind of the Lord; therefore, all things in his proposition falls. All things were not predestinated by the Lord.

     The proposition cannot be true, because the Lord commanded man not to eat of the tree-Genesis iii. 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. I started on that argument this morning and my time was called. "And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day; and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And He said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" Did He command them not to do it? The record says that you said the Lord did not tell them not to do it, and then to prove your contention you made an argument on the word "freely," and here the Lord says He commanded them not to do it. It doesn't sound like they were very free in doing that to please God, does it, to you? I guess Adam knew what God meant. My friend Rhodes doesn't know what He meant by that language, but God knew. And the man said: "The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? and the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." Now, that is the Bible version. I want to give you Rhodes' version on that: "Hast thou eaten of the tree as I have commanded and purposed thou shouldest eat?" He purposed all things, so she had to eat. And Adam answered and said to Him: "Yea, Lord, this woman thou gavest "me has done as thou hast purposed." She just couldn't have kept from it. If she just couldn't have kept from it, I wonder what caused it. Did the Lord cause it? If she couldn't have kept from it, what caused it? "And the Lord said unto the woman, Woman thou hast glorified me.” Is the wicked action of men and devils glorifying to God? In fact, do not some of your brethren say that God is just as much glorified in the wicked acts of men and devils as righteousness? Isn't that what they said?

     ELDER RHODES: I am not responsible for what they said.

     ELDER WEST: I don't believe I would be, either, but I wouldn't stay with them. God is just as much glorified in cursing, they say. "Woman, thou hast glorified me, as I purposed and predestinated both good and evil." If He predestinated both good and evil, she had to glorify Him. She couldn't help it, or His predestination would have fallen down. "And she answered and said to the Lord, Yes, I have listened to the serpent, as thou hast appointed, and fulfilled thy predestination." Is that charging consequences? How is it charging consequences, when you say He predestinated everything? (The speaker was interrupted by a voice in the audience.)

     ELDER WEST: If you want to do this man's debating, that is all right with me. That will be all right.

     "Yea, Lord, I have listened to the serpent, as thou hast appointed, to fulfill thy predestination." She must have been fulfilling His predestination if He predestinated everything. I wonder if that is charging consequences. I would find something ahead of that, too, if I believed that. God predestinated everything. It had to come to pass. Did it have to come to pass? Does what He predestinated have to come to pass?

     ELDER RHODES: It does.

     ELDER WEST: Does it have to come to pass? That is what I am asking him. Now, does it? Does everything have to come to pass?

ELDER RHODES: It cannot fail.

     ELDER WEST: So, it has to come to pass. Now then because God predestinated it. Secondary causes-but not because God predestinated it. Is the secondary cause the cause of God's predestination? Is that right? If the secondary cause is the cause of God's predestination, He caused secondary causes, and therefore, he caused it.

     ELDER RHODES: That's right.

     ELDER WEST: I knew that was his contention. I wasn't charging consequences at all. So, God caused it. He just came down and absolutely acknowledged that God predestinated all these wicked acts of men and devils and they had to do it. That is his logic. God made man good, but He didn't want man good, so He predestinated that he be evil minded. Did God predestinate that he be evil minded? I wonder if God predestinated his being evil minded. Did He? Did God predestinate that he be evil minded?

Time expired.