Brethren Moderators, Ladies, and Gentlemen:

I appreciate very much the opportunity of replying to my opponent's first speech. I want to say, first, while it is on my mind, that he says they did not kill the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I wonder if any of you can see the evasion in that. I guess that the Lord thought in the beginning, when He chose His people before He laid the foundation of the world that He would stump His toe and fall down and break His neck; do you think God intended to offer Him up in that way? I want to read to you and see whether or not that is an evasion. I want to read to you now the third chapter of Acts, the 18th verse: "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all His prophets, that Christ should suffer, He hath so fulfilled." Read also the 15th verse: "And killed (k-i-l-l-e-d) the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead;

whereof we are witnesses." Now, ditto. I would rather believe Jesus Christ—I would rather believe God's inspiration than to believe my brother. Why, these were good people who were perpetrating the death and crucifixion of Christ. They were good people. The Lord was going to lay Him down. He was going to lay down His life, and they were good people wanting to fulfill God's word. Is that the construction you place on it? I want to say, beloved friends, that I believe that every hand that performed against the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ had every wicked intent, and yet it was the will of God. I say, was it the will of God, that Jesus Christ die on Calvary's cross at the expense of wicked hands and evil men at the very beckoning of the devil? Was that God's will? And did they kill Him? I just want you to answer that.

Did God bruise His own Son? Isaiah liii. 10: "Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief: when thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand." And yet, their wickedness was not of God, but it was of them. They were acting freely. They were acting as they believed in their hearts how to be viciously against the Lord to destroy Him, just as much so as if God had not intended that they do that, and it proved that where Jesus said when talking to Pilate, "To this end was I born and for this purpose came I into the world." He came into the world for that specific purpose, to make a sacrifice for sin; and I want to say, my beloved friends, that Jesus indicated that when He said, "Thou canst have no power at all against me, except it was given thee from above." Did they have any power against Him? He said, "Why have you come out as against a thief, with swords and with staves?" Jesus said, on that very occasion, "Could I not now pray my Father in heaven, and He would presently give me more than twelve legions of angels; but then, how shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, which also they must be fulfilled." -Matt. xxvi. 53, 54. I want to say, my brethren and friends, that if they must be fulfilled, must they be fulfilled without the slaying by wicked hands? The text of Scripture which I introduce is enough: "Ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." What does slain mean? Does it mean to kill?

I want to finish giving him my questions, so that he can answer them. I will take that up next. I want him to answer them and I want him to get around that evasion also. I want him to get around that.

My friends, you are all intelligent people. You can see when a man is trying to evade a thing, and while it is fresh on my mind, lest he think the same thing about me, -I want to ask him if he does not believe that God—he will not have the term predestination. The reason why he won't have it is because designing leaders have prejudiced his mind against the Lord's Word. I believe that is the truth. I gave him the definitions, and I have a hundred more definitions here, words that mean identically the same thing as predestination when it comes to God, purpose, to appoint; and, in fact, Webster gives all of these definitions, but I want to say, right here, before I go any further, that I would rather have these questions answered. I believe he gave me one and I will answer it first: "Does the devil work anything?" I will answer that question, Brother West, by asking you one. By what power does the devil exist? Does he exist accidentally? He is under heaven, isn't he? "For thou hast created all things in heaven and in earth," "in the seas and in all deep places." "All things were made by Him and for Him, and without Him there was nothing made that was made." I can prove by the Bible that the Lord made him. I want you to take this reference (addressing Moderator): "The serpent is the most subtile beast of the field which the Lord hath made." "By His Spirit He hath garnished the heavens. His hand hath formed the crooked serpent."-Job xxvi. 13. Did not the devil deceive our Mother Eve in the garden? Was he in there accidentally? When you get through answering these questions you will be able to see. "Does the devil work anything?" Let us see. It says that "He shall go out upon the breadth of the earth, to deceive the whole world."-Revelation xx. 7, 8. Who said that? God said that. Do you think that he is going to fail to do it? Is it according to God's will for him to deceive the whole world? In the ninth chapter of Romans, the 22nd verse, it says, "What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." "Nay but, 0 man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" Now, that is what my opponent is trying to do. He is trying to evade. I have no right to call God in question as to why He did it. I am not trying to justify God in everything He does. I am trying to prove that He has a purpose in it or that everything is according to His purpose, or everything is according to His will, according to His foreknowledge, according to His predestination, or according to His appointment, or whatever words you want to use.  Now, that is enough along this line.  

Question No. 17: If God’s foreknowledge of the existence of all the creatures of time was based on his determination to make said creatures, then did not His knowledge of their acts rest on the same determination, since they could never exist unless He made them, and they could not act unless they existed?

    18. Does not the nature of the acts of each creature depend upon and flow out from the nature of the creature, and did not the nature of each creature depend upon the way they were made, and did not the way they were made depend upon the way that God in His counsel determined to make them?  If so, did not the nature of the acts of all creatures depend upon God’s determinate counsel?  

    19. Are not all things that are done under heaven a sore travail given of God to the sons of men to the intent that they be exercised therewith? (Eccl. 13.)

    I think that is enough for one dose.  I wonder if my brother objects to the common English term “absolute?” What does it mean?  It means, according to Webster, without restriction or limitation, as “God reigns absolute.” That is the word that my brother seems to be so prejudiced against, and I do not mean that reflectively. So, I have brought him the meaning and the definition, and as I said in my definition of the proposition, I mean all things. There cannot be things unless they do come to pass, can there? I mean all things: and I want to say, beloved friends, that when I say that, I mean that. I do not mean anything short of that.

    Now, I want to notice some of his arguments.  I want to know, first, if he justifies them in killing the Prince of life.  He said they did not kill Him, and yet, the Scriptures say that they killed the Prince of life. He says they did not kill Him, but since I have proved they did kill Him, I want to ask him if they were justified in killing the Lord of glory. “It pleased the Lord to bruise Him.” But were their wicked acts, an intention in their hearts, were not pleasing to the Lord. Their iniquities, their sins, which always prompt men to evil, the Lord was not well pleased with their sins and iniquities; but the end that was to be accomplished was the salvation of His people, and it was through the crucifixion of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Was He dead? He said, "Awake, 0 sword, against my Shepherd. I will smite the Shepherd and the sheep shall be scattered." What did He mean? David explains what He meant: "The wicked are thy sword, and the workers of iniquity, who are thy right hand." Give him that reference. The men of the world, which is thy hand." That is a quotation. Psalm xvii. 13, 14.

I want to say, beloved friends, that if my brother will just admit me one point; one word—you have no objection to the foreknowledge of God, do you, Brother West? I believe that he will admit, and I hope so, at least, the foreknowledge of all things. I wonder if he will? Did God know before Pharaoh acted that his heart would be hardened? Did God intend to harden Pharaoh's heart? He said, "Go and speak unto Pharaoh, the king of Egypt; thus sayeth the Lord God of the Hebrews, Let my people go; yet I will harden his heart so that he shall not let them go."-Exodus iv. 21; v. 1; vii. 1. If God had no purpose in hardening the heart of Pharaoh, tell me then, brethren and sisters, would He have said that He was going to harden his heart, and then harden it, actually? He said that He was going to harden his heart, and He said in other Scriptures, which I will introduce later, that He did harden it. In answer to my opponent, I say it never came into the mind of the Lord to command them to do this wickedness, my brethren. He did not command them to do it, and it did not come into His mind to command them to do it; but insofar as their doing this thing is concerned, the Lord was not ignorant of what they were going to do. It didn't come into the mind of the Lord to command this wickedness. The Lord was not ignorant of what they were going to do. Then, you would say He did not foreknow it, did He? I will ask you the question: Did ,the "Lord foreknow that they were going to do this thing? Will you please make a note of that and answer it? I do not want to write it down. If not, don't you reckon that He was awfully surprised when He saw it taking place? That is the way you and I are when we see things happening. We are often greatly surprised, but I want to say, beloved friends, that God is perfect in all of His attributes. “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient time the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all of my pleasure. Isaiah xlvi. 10. He said that God did not delight in my doctrine. It isn't my doctrine nor his doctrine, if it is the truth. But if it is God's doctrine, I want to say, my friends, that He delights in it. He said that He did not predestinate what He delighted in. I have already answered that position in the wickedness of those wicked men, and how their wickedness was punishable. Jesus said, concerning that, "Nevertheless, I say unto you, He that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."-John xix. 11. A sin, just the same, and yet it is said that "it pleased the Lord to bruise Him." It pleased the Lord to do what? "It pleased the Lord to bruise Him." And yet, my brother, I say that God in His infinite foreknowledge—if you don't want the term predestination—if you are afraid of it, or if you think that is too hard or too emphatic, I will come along with your foreknowledge; I will come along with your purpose, or, if you please, I will say, Did God purpose the death of His Son and the wicked hands that crucified Him?

Jeremiah vii. 31. It didn't come into His mind. The same argument holds true as to that. It did not come into God's mind to command them to do this wickedness. And yet, my brethren, I say that if they did this wickedness and it was a great surprise to God, He was not one bit ahead of us. That is often the case with us.

He did not tell Adam not to eat. He explained that "In the day thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die," Was God surprised that Adam did eat? Can you find any other use for the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? If you do find it, I want to see that chapter, book, and verse. If He created all things and created them for a purpose and did not use the tree of knowledge of good and evil, to fulfill His purpose, then He must have made it accidentally and not on purpose.

Where did the devil come from? He says, according to my doctrine, the devil was a brother of Jesus Christ. "Anyone who does the will of my Father." If that is the case and you put that kind of construction on it, you will find, my brethren, that all things are according to God's will. Did He teach His disciples to pray wrongly? He said: "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven." Did He teach them to pray for something that would not be done? If so, you had better get someone else to invent us a prayer book. I say that the vessels of wrath—that I have already quoted from Romans where it says, "What if God, willing to shew His wrath, and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction." When the question is asked, "For who hath resisted His will?" the writer is acknowledging that all of these vessels of wrath, that everything pertaining to it, is according to the will of God, and not resisting His will. They may be resisting His commandments as revealed in the Scriptures, and through the prophets, but not resisting His final and eternal and perfect will.

Pharaoh did not let them go after he told him he would let them go. He didn't do that because God hardened his heart. Now, I will resume my argument. I would like to have those questions answered in my brother's next speech, if it is convenient for him to do so.

ELDER WEST: Hold his time, please. You did not ask all of your questions in one speech.

ELDER RHODES: I thought those would be sufficient for one time.

ELDER WEST: You did not ask all of your questions in one speech. Why do you want them all answered in my next speech?

ELDER RHODES: If that is too much, it will be all right.

Ecclesiastes i. 13 is the argument that I made awhile ago: "And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven; this sore travail hath God given to the sons of men to be exercised therewith." Will the sons of men be exercised with them? Then they are the gift of God according to His word, purpose, foreknown, predestinated, appointment.

Daniel iii. 17 to 21: "If it be so, our God, whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace; and He will deliver us out of thine hand, 0 king. But if not, be it known unto thee, 0 king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up. Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seventh times more than it was wont to be heated. And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace." I say, my beloved friends, that here is an example of what the Lord purposed to His own glory.  I wonder if my brother cannot say that these things were intended, and that if they had not been cast into the fiery furnace, God would not have been glorified in their deliverance; and ye, they meant it just as wicked and full of iniquity as any man every did anything.

Basest of men over kingdom. Daniel iv. 17: "This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men; and giveth it to whomsoever He will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.” This was done in order to prove that god sets up the very basest of men over kingdoms.  Does He do it accidentally or on purpose?  David said: “By me kings reign, and the princes are judges of the earth.”—Prov. Viii. 15, 16.

So, I say, my friends, that I believe God’s Word is true, and I believe that His mind, His wisdom, is perfect. I do not believe there is anything that can escape the eternal purpose of God. I do not believe it ever has or will.

    Time expired.