Brethren Moderators, my Worthy Opponent, and Kind Friends:

I appear before you in the negative of the proposition that you have heard read and which I will, for convenience sake, read again: "The Scriptures teach that God, from the beginning, did absolutely predestinate all things, both good and evil, whatsoever comes to pass." I want to say, first, that I am happy to have this privilege and opportunity of being here in your presence, and I hope that what we say or what we may do on this occasion will be to the honor of the cause of our Master.

I appear in the negative of this proposition because I do not believe it. I believe that our brother is honest in affirming the proposition which he has affirmed. I am going to notice a few things which he has said. Brother Rhodes, in the beginning of his speech, said that in many places "all things" in the Bible means what is under consideration.

I want you to keep that in mind.

ELDER RHODES (interrupting): I said in, many places "at all times" meant what was under consideration.  

ELDER WEST (resuming argument): I want you to keep that in mind. I am going to call your attention to his first affirmative argument, which will be found in the fourth chapter of Acts, beginning with the 27th verse: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together, for to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." My friends, it doesn't say that the Lord from the beginning absolutely did predestinate all things that come to pass. That is what the brother's proposition says. I am going to say that if the proposition means exactly what he says it means, or if the text means exactly what Elder Rhodes says it means, it still does not say that all things that come to pass were predestinated by the Lord. I want you to notice the 25th verse: "Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against His Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together." They were gathered together to do what? To take the life of the Son of God. That is what they met for. But they didn't take it. It was the Lord that purposed that His Son would lay His life down, but the mob did not take His life. For instance, on yesterday morning the folks in the city of EI Dorado met to save souls. The Lord had purposed that souls should be saved, and the preachers met for the purpose of saving souls. But they did not do it. That mob met for the purpose of taking the life of the Son of God. That is exactly what they intended to do. That was their intention, but they didn't do it. Somebody has said, "How do you know they didn't?" Well, I will read to you a little. I call your attention to the tenth chapter of the Gospel according to John, and the 15th verse: "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: And I lay down my life for the sheep." All right; you ask the question: Did they take His life? I say, emphatically, no. His life was not taken by the mob, because the Son of God told the truth. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. The mob did not even help to do that. The mob was not the instigator in it. They hung Him between two thieves. They killed the thieves, but they did not kill the Son of God, because He laid His life down. So, the wicked acts of men and devils is not embraced in your text, but the Son of God laid His life down. "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down myself." Now, this is not sarcasm, but I would rather believe the Son of God than my brother. I would actually rather believe what the Son of God said about it than what any man in the world might say about it. So, "no man taketh it from me. I lay it down of myself."

All right, we will pass on and notice another thing. He quotes Acts ii. 23, "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." So, my friends, to crucify and slay does not always mean to take the natural life of an individual; but no\y, mark this down: That does not say that He determined that they would slay him. It says that He was delivered by the determinate counsel of God. It doesn't say that He was slain by the determinate counsel of God. He said that, "Ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain." He was delivered to this earth for His people, but, my friends, it does not say that they slew Him by the determinate counsel of God. That is all that I am going to say about that.

He said that by their own will they took the life of the Son of God; but it was by their own will they did it. Let me ask the gentleman if they could, by their own will, have acted differently?

How in the world could it have been by their own will if God had absolutely predestinated all things that come to pass? How were their wills concerned in the matter, according to his doctrine? If the doctrine is true that God absolutely predestinated all things that come to pass, then, my friends, it was not by their will, but they were fulfilling the will and predestination of God.

    Our brother said that the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. The Lord did harden Pharaoh's heart, but if the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, there is not one thing in the world in that which says that from the beginning God absolutely did predestinate all things that come to pass. That is what we are talking about, what God predestinated, and not what He did. We are talking about what He predestinated. Suppose that He had predestinated that Pharaoh's heart would be hardened. He asked the question, did everything that Pharaoh did, while he was here in the world, was that predestinated by the Lord? Let me ask you a question: Does the devil work anything or do any work? I will give you this question in writing.

We will pass on to Romans xiii. 1: "Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God; the powers that be are ordained of God." Does that mean all powers? Does that mean all powers are ordained by the Lord? Or does it have reference to some particular power? I wonder if the Lord meant for a young lady to be subject to the power of a sadist or rapist? I wonder if that is what that means? If a man were to rape your daughter, sir, I want to know if she is to be responsible or subject to his power. If that is the wicked act of men and devils, and the construction you put on the text is true, then, my friend, she has absolutely no right to resist; because the commandment ff God says, to be subject to the power of that lowdown dirty, devil and beast; to be 'subject to the powers that be. If that is what that means, our young lady has no right to protect her virtue. If a low-down reprobate comes along and wants to attack some young lady, she has no right to say a thing in the world about it, because she is to be subject to the powers that be. That is enough to say about that.

Daniel ii. 28 and 29: "But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days." I am not going to deny that the Lord reveals secrets. I am not going to deny that the Lord impresses people and reveals things to them that will come to pass. That is not your proposition. You are affirming that He did predestinate all things that come to pass. We are not talking about what He revealed.

We are talking about the proposition of what He predestinated.

But then we find they had the church in reference, Daniel, ii. 44. He didn't quote it, but he gave it as a citation: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." He is revealing that the church would be set up. That is what He has reference to, and it has no reference on God's earth to sin and wickedness; not a thing in the world about it.

    Now, he followed with some questions. I believe every reference that he has made. I object to the defining of his proposition, because he did not say one word in the world about whatsoever comes to pass. He got to "all things," but he didn't tell you about "whatsoever comes to pass" in the proposition. Let the gentleman tell us whether it is the wicked acts of men and devils. Let the gentleman tell us that what those individuals do they have to do and cannot keep from it, because it was predestinated. That is what I want him to tell us, what he means by "whatsoever comes to pass." I am going to make some negative arguments now, since I have caught up with his citations.

His proposition cannot be true because the Book of God says that such doctrine is wearisome to the Lord. Now, Brother Rhodes doesn’t mean to weary the Lord. He doesn't mean to do that, but the Bible says that his doctrine is wearisome to the Lord. Brother Rhodes, you don't want to weary the Lord, do you? I know you don't want to weary the Lord, but let us see what the Book says about it. "Ye have wearied the Lord with your words." Malachi ii. 17: "Ye have wearied the Lord with your words. Yet ye say, wherein have we wearied Him? When ye say, Everyone that doeth evil is good in the sight of the Lord, and He delighteth in them; or where is the God of judgment?" Does He delight in evil? This says that it is wearisome to the Lord. Somebody says He does not do it; He predestinated it. Well, He is not delighted in His predestination then, is He?

He does not delight in His predestination. He has predestined something that He does not delight in. That is a funny doctrine, for the Lord to predestinate something that He does not delight in. Now, I haven't a thing in the world against this good brother; not a thing in the world. I am talking about his doctrine.

His doctrine cannot be true, because there are things that come to pass that the Lord did not command, neither did it come into His heart. Jeremiah vii. 31: "And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the. son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." The Lord predestinated something that did not come into His heart, according to your doctrine!

Will you tell us that He did? It did not come into His heart, but He predestinated itl He said He did not command it. Was the devil ever commanded to do anything? What was the devil commanded to do? Did the Lord command the devil to do something? Now, I want the question answered.  

His proposition cannot be true, because people do things the Lord did not command nor desire, neither did it come into His mind. Jeremiah xix. 4, 5. Mind means intention, purpose, and desire. "Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents." That is one thing that He did not predestinate. "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind.” So, the man’s proposition falls. He did not predestinate all things that come to pass. If it didn't come into the Lord's mind, which means intention, purpose, and desire—does purpose and predestinate mean one and the same thing? If it doesn't mean one and the same thing, and the Lord did not purpose it, therefore, He did not predestinate it, because all things that come to pass are not predestinated of the Lord. It didn't come into His mind.

Now, here is a question I want you to answer in connection with this argument: If it did not come into His intention, purpose, or design, tell me how He predestinated something that did not come into His intention, purpose, or design?

His proposition cannot be true for this reason: God told Adam not to eat. But, according to his doctrine, God predestinated it; therefore, God predestinated for Adam to do what God told him not to do. God told him to do one thing and purposed that he do something else. Absolutely, according to him, contrary to what God said for him to do.

I want to reason a little on cause and effect. His proposition cannot be true for the following reasons: Eve caused Adam to sin in the garden of Eden. Did the devil cause Eve to sin in the garden of Eden? Who caused the devil to cause Eve to sin? Did you say in your speech that God is the first cause of all causes, and there has to be a cause? I can find one place that he was not the cause of all causes. Let me read to you something about this. Let us see what he said. I cannot give you the citation now but I will have it after awhile if you want it. Some folks hated God without a cause. If some folks hated God without a cause, then He was not the first cause of that, was He? Did they not hate God without a cause? If they hated God without a cause, then, He was not the cause of all causes because those folks hated God without a cause. It looks to me like you could see that.

But Adam was not deceived in the transgression; it was the woman that was deceived, and God said, "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." That is what the Lord told Adam. But wait a minute. After awhile the devil came on the scene and said to Eve, "Ye shall not surely die." The Lord said "thou shalt surely die," and the devil said, "thou shalt not die." I will read from Deuteronomy xxxii. 4: "He is the Rock, His work is perfect: for all His ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He." If God works iniquity, and He works all things, and that is what that means, does God work iniquity? How does the Lord work something that He hasn't got? How do you work something you haven't got? Do you folks here this morning work something you haven't got? The Lord is without iniquity. Tell me how He works something He has not got. I want to know how in the world He works something He hasn't got. If He is without iniquity, how does He work iniquity or did the little devil do it for Him?

The citation on some people hating the Lord without a cause is Psalm xxxv. 19.

If God works all things, and all things are both good and evil, then, Elder Rhodes, will you tell us how is the Lord's work an evil work? Does the Lord do any evil work?

Does He? Does He do any evil work?   

His proposition cannot be true, because God is without iniquity! Deuteronomy xxxii. 4. God works iniquity, according to Rhodes; therefore, God works something He hasn't got.—Rhodes.   

His proposition cannot be true, because—did James tell the truth when he said, "Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be?” Was God predestinating something that ought not to be? The Lord said by inspiration that this cursing ought not to be. Well, I wonder if it had to be, and they just had to curse. Then, the Lord predestinated what ought not to be. It just ought not to be. .Did the Lord predestinate something that ought not to be? Here is something that ought not to be. He either did or did not predestinate it. Did He predestinate all things whatsoever come to pass? Then, this ought to have been, because the Lord fixed it, and they couldn't keep from cursing. They just had to do it. And yet God said it ought not to be. God predestinated something that ought not to be. God doing something before the world began that ought not to be.

Somebody said, "Aren't you pretty positive?" Well, I am positive of that. I came down here to be nice to this gentleman, but not to his doctrine. I want you to understand that. I am not after him personally. But here is his dilemma. I will quote a syllogism to you. God said by inspiration things ought not to be, but God predestinated cursing, because He predestinated whatsoever comes to pass.—Rhodes. Therefore, God predestinated something that ought not to be.—Rhodes.

His proposition cannot be true, because God said by inspiration (1 Corinthians x. 5), "But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness." If He had known everything, and God fixed it, and it had to come to pass—it  had to be—then they had to do it, and God was not well pleased with it.—Rhodes.  So, God was not well pleased with His predestination. They did some thing that did not please the Lord, and the Lord fixed it so that they had to do something displeasing to Him. So, the Lord could not possibly be pleased with His predestination, because He was displeased with what some of those fellows were doing, according to Rhodes.     You, as intelligent individuals, can see that. He predestinated something that ought not to be.  

But here is the doctrine: "But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness." God predestinated what did not please Him according to Rhodes. Therefore, it pleased God to predestinate something that did not please Him, according to Rhodes. That is his dilemma, and I want to see him get out of it. I want to see him get out of the dilemma that he has placed himself in.  His proposition cannot be true because Jesus said; Matthew xxii. 50: "For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, which 'is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother" Does the devil do the will of God? Will the brother tell us if the devil does the will of God? Does the devil do the will of God? He who does the will of the Father is the brother of Jesus. That is what He says: So, if according to the brother, the devil does the will of God, therefore the devil and Christ are brothers, and there is no way in the world that you can escape it.

Time expired.